Surprising that the Championship will be held in Alhambra. Wouldn't Healdsburg have been a better site? Of course, the sites have to petition to host a playoff/championship game. Not sure who else did...
Strange decision. First as ponted out way closer to SPSV. Secondly, personally just don't like Alhambra's stadium, especially the visitors bleachers.
Hesldburgs Rec Park is a mud pit right now. Great location and venue, just not the ideal site to host a championship game.
Rancho is a no brainer. Awesome complex, they are a designated NCS host site and seems like things always go real smoothly there. Plenty of parking and seating, great lights and field is in great shape. Move D4 game to Friday or this one to Friday. Dumb move by NCS.
St Patrick/St Vincent high school is actually 9.7 miles from Alhambra high school. Fort Bragg high school is 184 miles from Alhambra high school. Who is the higher seed in this matchup again?
If a school wished to host a championship game, they had to submit an application by November 6th. Many of the sites we have discussed may not have been available to the NCS to choose as a location. And even sites that were used for previous playoff games this year had the option to specify they would not host for a game their team was not involved in. Without knowing what sites were available to the NCS I can't do more than scratch my head.
It may help in coming years to let higher seeds host the championship games or encourage more sites to host.
Yeah still don't like the location. Easiest and best solution would be go back to the good old jamborees where all the NCS games were held at the Coliseum.
Yes, a different feel for the crowd, but I've got several friends who got to play there and to this day say no better feeling than playing on a NFL field and it was the highlight of their HS playing days.
Division 5 History has always had the game at or close to the highest seed. Why the change this year, many times the high seed has actually hosted, why is Fort Bragg getting screwed.
In each of those cases, a site near the team with the highest seed submitted an application to host. I don't know which sites submitted applications this year. I agree, having the team with the highest seed host the game would be optimal...
Thanks -- Interesting that Fort Bragg and Healdsburg didn't submit an application to host a championship game. It does look like Ukiah is a possibility...I wonder why they didn't pick that site?
I think they had Alhambra already picked because of Berean being the top seed. I believe it will be changed. It should be at least somewhere in between the to schools not south of the southern school, not a very neutral site as it sits right now.
I'm not sure why the NCS selected Alhambra instead of Ukiah as the site for the Division V championship. I think anyone concerned about this should email the commissioners: http://cifncs.org/about-ncs/league-commissioners/index
They need to hear from the fans and public -- as well as from Fort Bragg High School officials -- that Ukiah, which submitted an application to host a championship game, should be the site for the Division V championship game.
Ukiah and Fort Bragg have grass fields. Championship games seem to only be played on artificial turf fields these days. So no way Ukiah will host and no reason for Fort Bragg to apply to host.
I don't think it's a requirement for turf, but probably just kind of an expectation by NCS to host.
I honestly can't remember going to a NCS final without turf. But it's so common place now it's not very often you go a game that is played in grass anymore!
Several championship games have been played at the Oakland Coliseum (natural grass) for D1 and D3 (last was 2011).
Many of the teams in the northern-most area of the section play on grass fields and many of those sites have been accepted by the NCS as suitable sites for championship games.
But, and here is the real issue, the NCS does not like to have both teams travel further than 20 miles. They want a game to be within a short commute of a community representing one of the schools - regardless of seeding. There are no other sites near Fort Bragg that applied to host a championship game. Either way, they will be traveling 50-190 miles. So, the NCS chose a neutral site within 10 miles of the 5th seeded team. It had nothing to do with turf.
Fair enough on the turf. I think the field was a factor on the Coliseum deal (that and the price to use it). Don't forget teams had free reign on the Coliseum from 82'-94'.
I get the not wanting teams to travel, but at least make it somewhat neutral and at a good venue. The JC used to host a bunch of NCS games. Great field and venue, not sure why that is not being utilized or thought of. Plus it's a good recruiting tool, get potential players on and in your facilities, win-win for everyone.
"Several championship games have been played at the Oakland Coliseum (natural grass) for D1 and D3 (last was 2011)."
NFL grass doesn't count.
"Many of the teams in the northern-most area of the section play on grass fields and many of those sites have been accepted by the NCS as suitable sites for championship games."
Don't they put the championship game on the artificial turf of Humboldt State up north?
When and where was the last championship game played on a high school grass field?
For 9 years now all Division 4 and 5 championship games have been played on artificial turf. You have to go back to the old Class A and B to find grass.
The last Class A championship game played on high school grass might have been 2004 at Justin-Siena. Not sure when they put in fake stuff.
The year before in 2003 the Class A game was played at College of the Redwoods and the Class B game was at HSU.
The last Class B championship game on high school grass might be 2000 at Cloverdale.
"But, and here is the real issue, the NCS does not like to have both teams travel further than 20 miles. They want a game to be within a short commute of a community representing one of the schools - regardless of seeding. There are no other sites near Fort Bragg that applied to host a championship game. Either way, they will be traveling 50-190 miles. So, the NCS chose a neutral site within 10 miles of the 5th seeded team. It had nothing to do with turf."
20 miles? Where does anything say 20 miles? Just another example of how the NCS does not represent the small rural public schools. Changing whatever they want as they go along. I have never heard of a higher seed being forced into a situation like this. Can you find an example?
Find the part in the NCS bylaws that says all championship games must be played on artificial turf. You think it's about turf when it's really about miles. From 2001 to 2010 many schools in the Bay Area installed turf. That's when championship games were predominately played on turf because most of the sites that met the basic requirements to host had turf. If you look back over the past 10-15 years, most of the high seeded teams were from the Bay Area or way up north. The NCS, once again, prefers to have the game near one of the schools - regardless of seed. I got this from former commissioner Gil Lemmon the last time Fort Bragg was the higher seed in a championship game and had to play Justin Siena in Santa Rosa.
If a school from the Bay Area is a top seed, the NCS can go ten miles in any direction to find a site - and the odds are they will have turf. Fort Bragg, the only school affected by this in the last ten years, has no nearby sites that meet the basic requirements to host.
If a school like Middletown were a top seed and made it to the championship game, it would be played at Lower Lake high school on its grass field - exactly where Middletown last went to the championship game as the highest seed. Middletown and Lower Lake are within 10 miles.
Further, a 2015 study linked higher concussion rates to playing on turf. In response to this, the NCS looked at the possibility of having championship games only on grass fields but there are too few sites in the section that meet the basic requirements. This is something to keep an eye on in the years ahead.
"The NCS, once again, prefers to have the game near one of the schools - regardless of seed. I got this from former commissioner Gil Lemmon the last time Fort Bragg was the higher seed in a championship game and had to play Justin Siena in Santa Rosa." Now its 10 miles not 20 miles? Where is this number coming from?
Justin-Siena traveled somewhere around 45 miles to play the higher seed at Santa Rosa. Fort Bragg traveled 117 miles.
If the game was in Santa Rosa this year St Patricks would travel 47 miles to play the higher seed.
Santa Rosa put in to host a championship game this year. Why isn't the game being held in Santa Rosa again this time around?
We are missing the main point. It does not matter if it's grass or turf, who cares. It's about what is fair. This is a championship game. The game should be at a neutral site, that is what fair. This does not just effect the boys who are playing, it effecting the community that supports those boys. And the 10 or 20 mile rule we are hearing about now is rediculus. No matter the reasoning behind it,no matter how much they say they are right it is not a fair neutral site. It's a championship that two team have earned the right to play in and off coarse adults are screwing it up again. Shame on CIF.
Ferndale has been the higher seed playing championship games at Humboldt State. HSU is further away than 10 to 20 miles.
Hoopa Valley has been the higher seed playing championship games at Humboldt State. HSU is over 50 miles away from Hoopa.
Ukiah put in to host a championship game. Ukiah is in the same county as Ft. Bragg and about the same distance Hoopa Valley traveled to play at HSU.
Why is the game further south than St Patricks high school? How many fields that meet the criteria and put in to host championship games are between Ft. Bragg and St Patricks?
All the complaints about the division 5 Championship game venue should be directed to these people. Call them,email them, just do something.
Gil Lemmon Title: Commissioner of Athletics Phone: 925-263-2110 x221 Email: gdlemmon@cifncs.org
Karen Smith Associate Commissioner ksmith10@cifncs.org Phone: 925-263-2110 x220
Kind of abad look. Last year this was the program that complained about what division they were in (and even worse conplained about other teams in the division). Now they complain about the location of the games this year. They dobt need to be known as the team that will complain about who and where they have to play?
Not saying it isn't fair, but it usually isn't. Hell last year St.Francis and St. Bernard's Catholic played their SBG's in SoCal even though NorCal was hosting the SBG'. MC had to go to Sutter for a regional play in game even though they were the higher ranked team. And no one complained in fact SB and MC went on the road and took care of business.
Or you can look at it this way. Unless people stand up for themselves who is going to do it? As a result of speaking up last year competitive equity came into being in the NCS. The whole section has benefitted.
No higher seed except Fort Bragg has been put in this position in the NCS playoffs. The community of Fort Bragg should complain that they are getting screwed! And yes it's not just the football program it is the entire community being affected by this bizarre decision.
"Not saying it isn't fair, but it usually isn't. Hell last year St.Francis and St. Bernard's Catholic played their SBG's in SoCal even though NorCal was hosting the SBG'. MC had to go to Sutter for a regional play in game even though they were the higher ranked team. And no one complained in fact SB and MC went on the road and took care of business."
You are talking about Regional and State games not NCS games. In the history of the NCS Playoffs I can not find an example of a LOWER seed getting the championship game advantage like this. The only thing that comes close is 2009.
Complain, complain, complain, only the squeaky wheel gets greased. FB vs. SPSV needs to be played in between the to cities not south of the southern city.
Per Gill Lemmon with the NCS: If Fort Bragg had designated their field as a site, the Division V championship would have been held at Fort Bragg. The NCS does not select sites based on turf and they have been using the same rules for championship site selection for well over 10 years, which includes a lot of grass fields (Lower Lake, Kelseyville and Oakland Coliseum just to name a few).
The key factor in designating sites is proximity to one of the teams in the championship with priority on the higher seeded team first (which could be their home field). If there is not a nearby site (one that applied on time and meets the minimum qualifications) then the committee will find a site near the lower seeded team (but not the lower seeded team's field unless there are no viable alternatives). Their goal is to have only one team traveling outside of their region. To have a championship game somewhere in between the schools would lead to a loss in gate attendance as both teams would be traveling.
I was wrong to try to define it by actual miles -- it's based on regions. The committee has the power to adjust these rules and even to give leeway on the minimum qualifications for host sites if necessary. Ukiah had applied to be a host site but only if their team was involved, so they would not have been considered by the committee.
The championship game would have been played at Fort Bragg. Yeah right they would have found a reason to put the game somewhere else. What a joke. Gill Lemmon is such a politician.
Play the game in Santa Rosa and the NCS will get a great gate attendance.
Section 512H The following guidelines will be used to determine the geographical area that a contest will be conducted in the sports of ...Football...
Designation of the geographical area that the contest will be conducted will be as follows:
Championship Round Games 1. Higher Seed
If you go to the NCS web site the Verification Of Championship Event Forms "Football"lists the following schools who indicated they would host the championship regardless of their teams participation.
Cardinal Newman, Clear Lake, El Molino, Lower Lake, Marin Catholic, Middletown, Santa Rosa, Ukiah.
It is clear that there are alternate fields available in Fort Bragg's geographic area. The "region" word appears no where in the rules.
I think you are wrong about Ukiah, or the form is wrong.
That's the information I got from Gil Lemmon. Like you, I had thought that each site listed as a potential host was for any division championship. But, if you read the form each team fills out carefully, there is a space where they can designate their site as a championship venue ONLY if their team is involved.
There are a lot of rules posted on the NCS site -- have you read all the bylaws, minutes from each mangers meeting, minutes from the sports advisory committee? These minutes are where the meat is. But, from the rules posted on the NCS site they use a similar term Gil used in site selection for championship games:
1. If no facility is available in the geographical area of the higher seeded team the contest will be placed in the geographical area of the lower seeded team.
Plus, potential host sites can bow out after the fact. The committee has a lot of power in determining sites and there is a lot of gray area. They can even alter the minimum standards for host sites.
But here's the big thing you all should have taken from Gil Lemmon: Fort Bragg could have been hosting the championship game in Fort Bragg had they just applied to be a host for championship games. And yes, it has happened before (and almost happened this year -- had Rancho Cotate won they would have hosted the Div III championship game).
The NCS needs to do the right thing here. Make it the same distance for both teams. But at least the game should be played closer to Fort Bragg then farther away. Marin Catholic is only 30 miles from the lower seed but saves drive time for Fort Bragg. Cardinal Newman, Santa Rosa etc. Come on folks, do the right thing.
Hey Class A Dude. If Middletown would play at Lower Lake in a championship game why is that not an option for Fort Bragg. Lower Lake is in Fort Braggs league and now that the 10/20 mile has turned into a region or area. Is your own league not in your region or area? For that matter Clear Lake put in for championship game that's even closer to Fort Bragg.
But here's the big thing you all should have taken from Gil Lemmon: Fort Bragg could have been hosting the championship game in Fort Bragg had they just applied to be a host for championship games. And yes, it has happened before (and almost happened this year -- had Rancho Cotate won they would have hosted the Div III championship game).
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong....
1. If Fort Bragg had listed then the game would be in Ukiah because the preference is for it not to be at the home site. So..logically isn't Ukiah the most reasonable location?
2. Is Gil saying that there is no site in Fort Bragg's geographic location? What is Fort Bragg's geographic area?
3. So I predict that Fort Bragg will now check the box knowing they will never, ever, be selected to host a championship; on the chance they get to the championship again, as a higher seed; and the section determines there are no other sites available, despite the fact that there are, actually, many available at the present time in Fort Bragg's geographic area. That makes a lot of sense!
Plus, With this type of system schools who are not able to host will always be discriminated against. Once again, follow the money.
Thanks for hosting this discussion.
And.yes...most of the rancid meat is in the minutes, bylaws, etc. My opinion is most of that is ignored by the NCS administration.
Hey Gil you must be checking out this site by now. Go back and look up the gate attendance of the 2009 D4 championship game in Santa Rosa. You are going to get a much bigger gate if you have it in Santa Rosa(Fort Braggs area)instead of Martinez.
In 2009 there were four times as many fans on the Fort Bragg side of the Field. The reason private schools don't bring as many fans is that the entire community does not feel a connection to the private school. In fact some of the fans were from around the entire league. Fort Bragg and Middletown maybe rivals in league competition, but when it comes to playoff time the entire league of all public schools become huge supporters of each other. That's what makes either Ukiah or Santa Rosa good locations. The fans will come from Mendocino, Lake, and Sonoma Counties. Just like they did in 2009.
I think now is the time to concentrate on football...We have the Division IV and V championships this weekend, then regional games before the state championships.
Anytime you think there is unfairness or inequity during the season or post season, you need to contact the NCS and let your voice be heard. But don't forget to contact your league officials and your school's officials.
The NCS might not pay much attention to your message, but they do have to listen to their member leagues and member schools.
Was he able to explain what Fort Braggs geographic area is? Clear Lake high school in Lakeport is one of Fort Braggs closest league opponents but must not be considered in Fort Braggs geographic area. How is this possible?
The 10 to 20 mile idea would never work for Fort Bragg. The closest school is Willits and it's an hour away by bus! This one size fits all approach to this bureaucratic snafu will never work for a section that is so spread out and diverse. Someone will always feel slighted unless the policy is more flexible. Even St Pats will feel like their compas has malfunctioned when they start heading south to play a team far to the north with a higher seed. I don't care how it's justified, it smells bad to those in the north. From now on the first lesson in Athletic Director 101 will be "check the host box". To bad it couldn't have been made clear before the applications were submitted. Now it just feels like they make up the rules when they feel like it. Has any Athletic Director within the section been told about this previously? Have some been told and not others? It's just very unfortunate that the implementation of a rule appears to come at a cost. Looks like Fort Bragg will be the only school to suffer the penalty for the previously unknown policy.
Bottom line from an outsider, NCS thought Berean Christian would win and set the Location, when they got upset and the location was already set they threw out all these interpretations when the truth is they never looked for a sight close to Fort Bragg. Ask Gil Lemmon who they asked to host close as they can to Fort Bragg after Berean got upset, the answer will be nobody.
The solution to this problem in the future is to hold the section title at the site of the higher seeded team. These finals are not the end all that they once were prior to the state playoffs. Now it's just another playoff game.
3. Separate, geographically determined, conferences shall serve NCS member schools as follows
b Marin, Sonoma, Mendocino and Napa Counties (Thats the CMC)
So there's your geographic area definition. But wait, there's more:
106 B 1. says, in part:
"Basic leagues shall be composed of schools from a generally proximate geographical area."
So any school in Fort Bragg's league is in its geographical area, and also, any school in the conference. So the NCS made a mistake. They need to fix it.
A school in Petaluma is in Fort Bragg's league, so wouldn't that make the entire Santa Rosa area within the "geographic area" ? Santa Rosa High School and Montgomery High School both applied to host the final. Santa Rosa hosted the final in 2009 when Fort Bragg played a school from Napa. There seems to be few explainations here as to why Alhambra has hosted so many times. Who gets the concession revenue, who does it benefit? A cause close to the hearts of Section officials? Either there is a monetary connection or section staff is just lazy and Alhambra is the easy route!!!
Note for Lori Carter: your recent article stated that Fort Bragg lost the final game in 2009, this was an error on your part. The final score was 23-18 Fort Bragg the winner.
76 comments:
Fort Bragg 7 kelseyville 0 1st qrt
Thanks!
Fort Bragg 7 kelseyville 0 half-time
Fort Bragg 14 kelseyville 0 3rd qtr
Thanks for posting the score!
Fort Bragg 14 kelseyville 7 4:43 left in the game
Fort Bragg 20 kelseyville 7 2 minutes left
Thanks again!
Fort Bragg 20 kelseyville 7 final
Thanks -- I hope you can keep posting next weekend!
Will do can't wait for next week.
Calling BS CIF has it posted that Fort Bragg has to travel to Alhambra for the championship game
Where's game gonna be? I know NCS likes Rancho, which is a great venue!
Surprising that the Championship will be held in Alhambra. Wouldn't Healdsburg have been a better site? Of course, the sites have to petition to host a playoff/championship game. Not sure who else did...
Why would the game be in Martinez if Ft Bragg is the higher seed?
What a F-ing joke if they have the championship game 12 miles from the lower seeded St Patricks home town.
Strange decision. First as ponted out way closer to SPSV. Secondly, personally just don't like Alhambra's stadium, especially the visitors bleachers.
Hesldburgs Rec Park is a mud pit right now. Great location and venue, just not the ideal
site to host a championship game.
Rancho is a no brainer. Awesome complex, they are a designated NCS host site and seems like things always go real smoothly there. Plenty of parking and seating, great lights and field is in great shape. Move D4 game to Friday or this one to Friday. Dumb move by NCS.
St Patrick/St Vincent high school is actually 9.7 miles from Alhambra high school. Fort Bragg high school is 184 miles from Alhambra high school.
Who is the higher seed in this matchup again?
NCS needs to change this location. Has a higher seed ever had to travel this much further to a championship game? This must have been a mistake.
If a school wished to host a championship game, they had to submit an application by November 6th. Many of the sites we have discussed may not have been available to the NCS to choose as a location. And even sites that were used for previous playoff games this year had the option to specify they would not host for a game their team was not involved in. Without knowing what sites were available to the NCS I can't do more than scratch my head.
It may help in coming years to let higher seeds host the championship games or encourage more sites to host.
Yeah still don't like the location. Easiest and best solution would be go back to the good old jamborees where all the NCS games were held at the Coliseum.
Yes, a different feel for the crowd, but I've got several friends who got to play there and to this day say no better feeling than playing on a NFL field and it was the highlight of their HS playing days.
Division 5 History has always had the game at or close to the highest seed. Why the change this year, many times the high seed has actually hosted, why is Fort Bragg getting screwed.
In each of those cases, a site near the team with the highest seed submitted an application to host. I don't know which sites submitted applications this year. I agree, having the team with the highest seed host the game would be optimal...
Hey Class A Dude.
Here is the list of schools that submitted to host playoff and championship games. I see many Santa Rosa area schools.
http://cifncs.org/sports/fball/Football_Verification_Form
Thanks -- Interesting that Fort Bragg and Healdsburg didn't submit an application to host a championship game. It does look like Ukiah is a possibility...I wonder why they didn't pick that site?
I think they had Alhambra already picked because of Berean being the top seed. I believe it will be changed. It should be at least somewhere in between the to schools not south of the southern school, not a very neutral site as it sits right now.
I'm not sure why the NCS selected Alhambra instead of Ukiah as the site for the Division V championship. I think anyone concerned about this should email the commissioners: http://cifncs.org/about-ncs/league-commissioners/index
They need to hear from the fans and public -- as well as from Fort Bragg High School officials -- that Ukiah, which submitted an application to host a championship game, should be the site for the Division V championship game.
Ukiah and Fort Bragg have grass fields. Championship games seem to only be played on artificial turf fields these days. So no way Ukiah will host and no reason for Fort Bragg to apply to host.
Turf is not a requirement to host a championship game according to the NCS site.
Has there been a Division 4 or 5 championship game played on grass in the past 10 years?
I don't think it's a requirement for turf, but probably just kind of an expectation by NCS to host.
I honestly can't remember going to a NCS final without turf. But it's so common place now it's not very often you go a game that is played in grass anymore!
Several championship games have been played at the Oakland Coliseum (natural grass) for D1 and D3 (last was 2011).
Many of the teams in the northern-most area of the section play on grass fields and many of those sites have been accepted by the NCS as suitable sites for championship games.
But, and here is the real issue, the NCS does not like to have both teams travel further than 20 miles. They want a game to be within a short commute of a community representing one of the schools - regardless of seeding. There are no other sites near Fort Bragg that applied to host a championship game. Either way, they will be traveling 50-190 miles. So, the NCS chose a neutral site within 10 miles of the 5th seeded team. It had nothing to do with turf.
Fair enough on the turf. I think the field was a factor on the Coliseum deal (that and the price to use it). Don't forget teams had free reign on the Coliseum from 82'-94'.
I get the not wanting teams to travel, but at least make it somewhat neutral and at a good venue. The JC used to host a bunch of NCS games. Great field and venue, not sure why that is not being utilized or thought of. Plus it's a good recruiting tool, get potential players on and in your facilities, win-win for everyone.
"Several championship games have been played at the Oakland Coliseum (natural grass) for D1 and D3 (last was 2011)."
NFL grass doesn't count.
"Many of the teams in the northern-most area of the section play on grass fields and many of those sites have been accepted by the NCS as suitable sites for championship games."
Don't they put the championship game on the artificial turf of Humboldt State up north?
When and where was the last championship game played on a high school grass field?
Fort Bragg vs. SVSP
Newman vs. St. Bernard's Catholic
Finals are set. Sucks they are both on the same day. "Let's play two" doubleheader wound be nice. Now decisions have to be made.
For 9 years now all Division 4 and 5 championship games have been played on artificial turf. You have to go back to the old Class A and B to find grass.
The last Class A championship game played on high school grass might have been 2004 at Justin-Siena. Not sure when they put in fake stuff.
The year before in 2003 the Class A game was played at College of the Redwoods and the Class B game was at HSU.
The last Class B championship game on high school grass might be 2000 at Cloverdale.
"But, and here is the real issue, the NCS does not like to have both teams travel further than 20 miles. They want a game to be within a short commute of a community representing one of the schools - regardless of seeding. There are no other sites near Fort Bragg that applied to host a championship game. Either way, they will be traveling 50-190 miles. So, the NCS chose a neutral site within 10 miles of the 5th seeded team. It had nothing to do with turf."
20 miles? Where does anything say 20 miles? Just another example of how the NCS does not represent the small rural public schools. Changing whatever they want as they go along. I have never heard of a higher seed being forced into a situation like this. Can you find an example?
Find the part in the NCS bylaws that says all championship games must be played on artificial turf. You think it's about turf when it's really about miles. From 2001 to 2010 many schools in the Bay Area installed turf. That's when championship games were predominately played on turf because most of the sites that met the basic requirements to host had turf. If you look back over the past 10-15 years, most of the high seeded teams were from the Bay Area or way up north. The NCS, once again, prefers to have the game near one of the schools - regardless of seed. I got this from former commissioner Gil Lemmon the last time Fort Bragg was the higher seed in a championship game and had to play Justin Siena in Santa Rosa.
If a school from the Bay Area is a top seed, the NCS can go ten miles in any direction to find a site - and the odds are they will have turf. Fort Bragg, the only school affected by this in the last ten years, has no nearby sites that meet the basic requirements to host.
If a school like Middletown were a top seed and made it to the championship game, it would be played at Lower Lake high school on its grass field - exactly where Middletown last went to the championship game as the highest seed. Middletown and Lower Lake are within 10 miles.
Further, a 2015 study linked higher concussion rates to playing on turf. In response to this, the NCS looked at the possibility of having championship games only on grass fields but there are too few sites in the section that meet the basic requirements. This is something to keep an eye on in the years ahead.
"The NCS, once again, prefers to have the game near one of the schools - regardless of seed. I got this from former commissioner Gil Lemmon the last time Fort Bragg was the higher seed in a championship game and had to play Justin Siena in Santa Rosa."
Now its 10 miles not 20 miles? Where is this number coming from?
Justin-Siena traveled somewhere around 45 miles to play the higher seed at Santa Rosa. Fort Bragg traveled 117 miles.
If the game was in Santa Rosa this year St Patricks would travel 47 miles to play the higher seed.
Santa Rosa put in to host a championship game this year. Why isn't the game being held in Santa Rosa again this time around?
We are missing the main point. It does not matter if it's grass or turf, who cares. It's about what is fair. This is a championship game. The game should be at a neutral site, that is what fair. This does not just effect the boys who are playing, it effecting the community that supports those boys. And the 10 or 20 mile rule we are hearing about now is rediculus. No matter the reasoning behind it,no matter how much they say they are right it is not a fair neutral site. It's a championship that two team have earned the right to play in and off coarse adults are screwing it up again. Shame on CIF.
Hey Class A Dude.
Are you saying Fort Bragg is the only higher seed to ever be affected by this rule?
Maybe It's Not Paranoia If They are Really Out to Get You!
Ferndale has been the higher seed playing championship games at Humboldt State. HSU is further away than 10 to 20 miles.
Hoopa Valley has been the higher seed playing championship games at Humboldt State. HSU is over 50 miles away from Hoopa.
Ukiah put in to host a championship game. Ukiah is in the same county as Ft. Bragg and about the same distance Hoopa Valley traveled to play at HSU.
Why is the game further south than St Patricks high school? How many fields that meet the criteria and put in to host championship games are between Ft. Bragg and St Patricks?
All the complaints about the division 5 Championship game venue should be directed to these people. Call them,email them, just do something.
Gil Lemmon
Title: Commissioner of Athletics
Phone: 925-263-2110 x221
Email: gdlemmon@cifncs.org
Karen Smith
Associate Commissioner
ksmith10@cifncs.org
Phone: 925-263-2110 x220
All the complaints about the division 5 Championship game venue should be directed to these people. Call them,email them, just do something.
Gil Lemmon
Title: Commissioner of Athletics
Phone: 925-263-2110 x221
Email: gdlemmon@cifncs.org
Karen Smith
Associate Commissioner
ksmith10@cifncs.org
Phone: 925-263-2110 x220
Kind of abad look. Last year this was the program that complained about what division they were in (and even worse conplained about other teams in the division). Now they complain about the location of the games this year. They dobt need to be known as the team that will complain about who and where they have to play?
Not saying it isn't fair, but it usually isn't. Hell last year St.Francis and St. Bernard's Catholic played their SBG's in SoCal even though NorCal was hosting the SBG'. MC had to go to Sutter for a regional play in game even though they were the higher ranked team. And no one complained in fact SB and MC went on the road and took care of business.
Or you can look at it this way. Unless people stand up for themselves who is going to do it? As a result of speaking up last year competitive equity came into being in the NCS. The whole section has benefitted.
No higher seed except Fort Bragg has been put in this position in the NCS playoffs.
The community of Fort Bragg should complain that they are getting screwed! And yes it's not just the football program it is the entire community being affected by this bizarre decision.
"Not saying it isn't fair, but it usually isn't. Hell last year St.Francis and St. Bernard's Catholic played their SBG's in SoCal even though NorCal was hosting the SBG'. MC had to go to Sutter for a regional play in game even though they were the higher ranked team. And no one complained in fact SB and MC went on the road and took care of business."
You are talking about Regional and State games not NCS games. In the history of the NCS Playoffs I can not find an example of a LOWER seed getting the championship game advantage like this. The only thing that comes close is 2009.
Complain, complain, complain, only the squeaky wheel gets greased. FB vs. SPSV needs to be played in between the to cities not south of the southern city.
Here is an idea move the division 4 game to Alhambra and play the division 5 game at Rancho.
Per Gill Lemmon with the NCS: If Fort Bragg had designated their field as a site, the Division V championship would have been held at Fort Bragg. The NCS does not select sites based on turf and they have been using the same rules for championship site selection for well over 10 years, which includes a lot of grass fields (Lower Lake, Kelseyville and Oakland Coliseum just to name a few).
The key factor in designating sites is proximity to one of the teams in the championship with priority on the higher seeded team first (which could be their home field). If there is not a nearby site (one that applied on time and meets the minimum qualifications) then the committee will find a site near the lower seeded team (but not the lower seeded team's field unless there are no viable alternatives). Their goal is to have only one team traveling outside of their region. To have a championship game somewhere in between the schools would lead to a loss in gate attendance as both teams would be traveling.
I was wrong to try to define it by actual miles -- it's based on regions. The committee has the power to adjust these rules and even to give leeway on the minimum qualifications for host sites if necessary. Ukiah had applied to be a host site but only if their team was involved, so they would not have been considered by the committee.
The championship game would have been played at Fort Bragg. Yeah right they would have found a reason to put the game somewhere else. What a joke. Gill Lemmon is such a politician.
Play the game in Santa Rosa and the NCS will get a great gate attendance.
Glad to know the NCS is about $$$ and not what the proper thing to do is. Kids learn from this lesson, king Gill has spoke.
I doesn't matter where the game is at Fort Bragg will have more fans there than the other team. It's been that way for years.
Section 512H
The following guidelines will be used to determine the geographical area that a contest will be conducted in the sports of ...Football...
Designation of the geographical area that the contest will be conducted will be as follows:
Championship Round Games
1. Higher Seed
If you go to the NCS web site the Verification Of Championship Event Forms "Football"lists the following schools who indicated they would host the championship regardless of their teams participation.
Cardinal Newman, Clear Lake, El Molino, Lower Lake, Marin Catholic, Middletown, Santa Rosa, Ukiah.
It is clear that there are alternate fields available in Fort Bragg's geographic area. The "region" word appears no where in the rules.
I think you are wrong about Ukiah, or the form is wrong.
So not only does 10 miles or 20 miles not appear in the rules the REGION word does not appear either? What is going on here?
Other viable fields that meet the criteria are being overlooked? What is going on here?
That's the information I got from Gil Lemmon. Like you, I had thought that each site listed as a potential host was for any division championship. But, if you read the form each team fills out carefully, there is a space where they can designate their site as a championship venue ONLY if their team is involved.
There are a lot of rules posted on the NCS site -- have you read all the bylaws, minutes from each mangers meeting, minutes from the sports advisory committee? These minutes are where the meat is. But, from the rules posted on the NCS site they use a similar term Gil used in site selection for championship games:
1. If no facility is available in the geographical area of the higher seeded team the contest will be placed in the geographical area of the lower seeded team.
Plus, potential host sites can bow out after the fact. The committee has a lot of power in determining sites and there is a lot of gray area. They can even alter the minimum standards for host sites.
But here's the big thing you all should have taken from Gil Lemmon: Fort Bragg could have been hosting the championship game in Fort Bragg had they just applied to be a host for championship games. And yes, it has happened before (and almost happened this year -- had Rancho Cotate won they would have hosted the Div III championship game).
king Gill has spoken and it's about $$$$$$ and who has more $$$$$$$ private schools
The NCS needs to do the right thing here. Make it the same distance for both teams. But at least the game should be played closer to Fort Bragg then farther away. Marin Catholic is only 30 miles from the lower seed but saves drive time for Fort Bragg. Cardinal Newman, Santa Rosa etc. Come on folks, do the right thing.
The right thing? We are talking about the NCS here. Give them a couple of years and they might come up with something.
Hey Class A Dude. If Middletown would play at Lower Lake in a championship game why is that not an option for Fort Bragg. Lower Lake is in Fort Braggs league and now that the 10/20 mile has turned into a region or area. Is your own league not in your region or area? For that matter Clear Lake put in for championship game that's even closer to Fort Bragg.
But here's the big thing you all should have taken from Gil Lemmon: Fort Bragg could have been hosting the championship game in Fort Bragg had they just applied to be a host for championship games. And yes, it has happened before (and almost happened this year -- had Rancho Cotate won they would have hosted the Div III championship game).
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong....
1. If Fort Bragg had listed then the game would be in Ukiah because the preference is for it not to be at the home site. So..logically isn't Ukiah the most reasonable location?
2. Is Gil saying that there is no site in Fort Bragg's geographic location? What is Fort Bragg's geographic area?
3. So I predict that Fort Bragg will now check the box knowing they will never, ever, be selected to host a championship; on the chance they get to the championship again, as a higher seed; and the section determines there are no other sites available, despite the fact that there are, actually, many available at the present time in Fort Bragg's geographic area. That makes a lot of sense!
Plus, With this type of system schools who are not able to host will always be discriminated against. Once again, follow the money.
Thanks for hosting this discussion.
And.yes...most of the rancid meat is in the minutes, bylaws, etc. My opinion is most of that is ignored by the NCS administration.
Hey Gil you must be checking out this site by now. Go back and look up the gate attendance of the 2009 D4 championship game in Santa Rosa. You are going to get a much bigger gate if you have it in Santa Rosa(Fort Braggs area)instead of Martinez.
In 2009 there were four times as many fans on the Fort Bragg side of the Field. The reason private schools don't bring as many fans is that the entire community does not feel a connection to the private school. In fact some of the fans were from around the entire league. Fort Bragg and Middletown maybe rivals in league competition, but when it comes to playoff time the entire league of all public schools become huge supporters of each other. That's what makes either Ukiah or Santa Rosa good locations. The fans will come from Mendocino, Lake, and Sonoma Counties. Just like they did in 2009.
I think now is the time to concentrate on football...We have the Division IV and V championships this weekend, then regional games before the state championships.
Anytime you think there is unfairness or inequity during the season or post season, you need to contact the NCS and let your voice be heard. But don't forget to contact your league officials and your school's officials.
The NCS might not pay much attention to your message, but they do have to listen to their member leagues and member schools.
I emailed the NCS and got a reply from Mr.Lemon not what I wanted to hear but he highlighted the bylaws and I am ok with that. Facts are facts.
What about predictions for this weekend?
Was he able to explain what Fort Braggs geographic area is?
Clear Lake high school in Lakeport is one of Fort Braggs closest league opponents but must not be considered in Fort Braggs geographic area. How is this possible?
The 10 to 20 mile idea would never work for Fort Bragg. The closest school is Willits and it's an hour away by bus! This one size fits all approach to this bureaucratic snafu will never work for a section that is so spread out and diverse. Someone will always feel slighted unless the policy is more flexible. Even St Pats will feel like their compas has malfunctioned when they start heading south to play a team far to the north with a higher seed. I don't care how it's justified, it smells bad to those in the north. From now on the first lesson in Athletic Director 101 will be "check the host box". To bad it couldn't have been made clear before the applications were submitted. Now it just feels like they make up the rules when they feel like it. Has any Athletic Director within the section been told about this previously? Have some been told and not others? It's just very unfortunate that the implementation of a rule appears to come at a cost. Looks like Fort Bragg will be the only school to suffer the penalty for the previously unknown policy.
You need to check with officials at Fort Bragg High School to confirm if they knew about the rule or not.
What does Geographic area mean?
What does Geographic area mean?
It means you are screwed if you are a isolated small rural public school.
Bottom line from an outsider, NCS thought Berean Christian would win and set the Location, when they got upset and the location was already set they threw out all these interpretations when the truth is they never looked for a sight close to Fort Bragg. Ask Gil Lemmon who they asked to host close as they can to Fort Bragg after Berean got upset, the answer will be nobody.
The solution to this problem in the future is to hold the section title at the site of the higher seeded team. These finals are not the end all that they once were prior to the state playoffs. Now it's just another playoff game.
But then Alhambra high school won't be able to host a championship game 7 out of 10 years.
Get this:
Constitution Rule 106 says, in part:
3. Separate, geographically determined, conferences shall serve NCS member schools as follows
b Marin, Sonoma, Mendocino and Napa Counties (Thats the CMC)
So there's your geographic area definition. But wait, there's more:
106 B 1. says, in part:
"Basic leagues shall be composed of schools from a generally proximate geographical area."
So any school in Fort Bragg's league is in its geographical area, and also, any school in the conference. So the NCS made a mistake. They need to fix it.
A school in Petaluma is in Fort Bragg's league, so wouldn't that make the entire Santa Rosa area within the "geographic area" ? Santa Rosa High School and Montgomery High School both applied to host the final. Santa Rosa hosted the final in 2009 when Fort Bragg played a school from Napa. There seems to be few explainations here as to why Alhambra has hosted so many times. Who gets the concession revenue, who does it benefit? A cause close to the hearts of Section officials? Either there is a monetary connection or section staff is just lazy and Alhambra is the easy route!!!
Note for Lori Carter: your recent article stated that Fort Bragg lost the final game in 2009, this was an error on your part. The final score was 23-18 Fort Bragg the winner.
gclub
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