That is peculiar...Dublin High is another popular site for other divisions. They do seem to have their favorites. Again, talk to your schools and leagues. The NCS has to listen to them.
I won't preject a winner, but I believe we'll know what kind of game the D4 will be by the end of the first quarter, and D5 by the end of the first half.
3. Separate, geographically determined, conferences shall serve NCS member schools as follows
b Marin, Sonoma, Mendocino and Napa Counties (Thats the CMC)
So there's your geographic area definition. But wait, there's more:
106 B 1. says, in part:
"Basic leagues shall be composed of schools from a generally proximate geographical area."
So any school in Fort Bragg's league is in its geographical area, and also, any school in the conference. So the NCS made a mistake. They need to fix it.
If you sent a complaint to your school or league, then make that part of your post. And by all means, let everyone know what their response was. That would give us something to chew on.
I never said "don't post this again" or "don't make this public". But my response to every post on this topic will be the same: You need to get the agents of change involved -- the schools and leagues.
The section office is in San Ramon I would be willing to guess all the section staff live in a relatively close radius. Dublin and Alhambra are very close. This makes it easier for section staff. How do you think this makes all the spectators who are spread out all the way to the Oregon border feel??
Is Gil saying that the game can be played in Fort Bragg if Fort Bragg asks? I do not believe Fort Bragg understood the consequence not checking a box. Timberwolf stadium certainly is adequate for the job.
In addition. Clear Lake is in our geographical area otherwise we would not be in the same league. They have told the CIF they want to host the game.
And how is Ukiah allowed to bow out? If they can bow out why cant Fort Bragg get back in?
Since neutrality is not a priority anymore and these section games are no longer the end of the season, it's time to simply play the games at the site of the higher seeded team. Eliminate all the suspense over how the policy will be twisted each year.
Lemmon said his staff contacted Ukiah, but were told it were unable to host a game on Saturday. “So we’re back to the bylaws,” he said. “If you can’t play in the geographic area of the higher seed, you play in the geographic area of the lower seed. We don’t meet in the middle.”
But Lemmon said even Ukiah would have been stretching the NCS definition of “geographic proximity.”
It is whatever the NCS wants it to be when the NCS wants it to be. NCL/CMC needs to address this after the season because their members are the only ones affected by this.
This year in the post season in just D4 and D5 there have been 23 games played so far. Not one of those games has had a controversy about the location. The higher seed is the host! End of story! No need for pages of conflicting and confusing definitions and loop holes.
These games are no longer the end of the season as they were prior to the creation of state playoffs. The section final should be treated no differently than any other section playoff game. The host should be the highest seeded team. This will give all spectators more time to plan attending the game. Everyone will know the two possible locations two weeks prior. More time for people to make scheduling arrangements. Attendance will go up.
I think that is the best way to go for section titles. And you'really right, it would end all the controversy at this level. Section winners and their fans might have to travel for a regional game, but they'd know that ahead of time.
I read with interest your reply to Heath's letter which he posted on his blog as well as the November 30, 2016 article in the Press Democrat written by Lori Carter. On behalf of a small coastal community and our entire league, I urge the NCS to act now to change the site of the Division V Championship game. Steeling this game from our area, our entire league, would be a tragedy. A letter sent to Gil Lemmon & Lori Carter today:
Part 1 of 3 Please address the following.
You state "Ft. Bragg is the higher seeded team and the first obligation is to place the game in the geographical area of the higher seeded team." How does the NCS define geographical area? In your alignment handbook leagues are based upon geographic proximity. Shouldn't any school in the NCL 1 be within Fort Bragg's geographic area? If yes then Clear Lake High School, among others, has indicated it wants to host the game.
I have reviewed the 2016 Verification of Championship Event Forms Football form on the CIF website. That form indicates the following schools (among others) applied to host a championship: Ukiah, Clear Lake, Lower Lake, Middletown, and several other schools which are closer to Fort Bragg yet in the same area as the lower seed including Cardinal Newman (53 miles from the lower seed). You state that you are not going to set the game "in the middle". You fail to acknowledge that the lower seed would travel a lesser distance to Cardinal Newman than Fort Bragg would have had Ukiah been available. (57 miles) How is this fair or logical?
You indicate you discussed the issue with Karen Smith on either Thursday or Friday, November 17 or 18. You state, "The first question I asked was did Ft. Bragg designate their site. This is common for some schools since it assures that if their school is the higher seed in the finals that the game is played at their school, assuming that the school stadium meets all other requirements of hosting. In Ft. Bragg’s case the school did not designate their site." You then state " I suggested to Ms. Smith that she try to secure Ukiah HS, but also stated that if Ukiah is not available then NCS bylaws require that the game be placed in the geographical area of the lower seed." While I do not believe the first part of your statement (the underlined portion) is strictly accurate (i.e. you imply a home game to the higher seed) I do believe the jump from Ukiah to the lower seed's undefined "geographic area" ignored the other available sites; it gives no explanation for why Ukiah was no longer available and does not explain why a location like Cardinal Newman was not considered?
In addition, since the Ukiah location was no longer available, wouldn't it have have been appropriate to notify Fort Bragg of the fact that its closest geographic neighbor was no longer able to host? And Fort Bragg should also have been notified, at some point, that Ukiah was the only school who was available within the undefined "geographic area" for purposes of setting the home game. Fort Bragg could have then been in a position to make it clear to the section it wished to host.
In your comments made to Ms. Carter you state "Ukiah would have been stretching the NCS definition of "geographic proximity" On what do you base this claim? And, again, Cardinal Newman is closer to the lower seed than Fort Bragg is to Ukiah. Why is the game not being played in Santa Rosa? Are fans from the lower seed held to a lesser burden of travel?
Again, how does the NCS define geographic area? From what I have been able to find the term is used when determining conferences and leagues but is not defined elsewhere. Shouldn't the NCS and member schools be able to rely upon definitions actually found in NCS materials?
Fort Bragg's closest league opponent is in Willits, approximately on hour from Fort Bragg by bus. The next closest is Clear Lake. Fort Bragg students and fans regularly travel, in large numbers, to these schools. Fort Bragg residents and supporters consider it their duty to support the local teams. In this case you could expect a substantial number of Fort Bragg spectators to travel to a game within Fort Bragg's traditional geographic area.
Your letter offers no explanation as to why Ukiah is no longer available but Clear Lake, Lower Lake and Middletown are in Fort Bragg's league and members of the Coastal Mountain Conference, the scope of which is also based upon geography. It is clear that there are several sites available. Each of which would benefit from hosting a championship not only from the excitement of hosting the game but also from the concession sales such an event would generate. A game in Lake County would draw spectators from Fort Bragg, Clear Lake, Lower Lake, Kelsyville and Middletown. Shouldn't these communities have the opportunity to enjoy a division championship in their own back yard?
You also state "Alhambra is a designated site, arranged by NCS staff in advance of the championships and the school has hosted several championship games in the past several years." This is besides the point but also quite telling. Essentially this is an admission that the NCS had the site selected in advance of determining who was actually in the game. Many suspect that NCS staff assumed that the number one seed was going to win the game and acted accordingly. This was not the case and placing the game at this site does not take into account the multiple sites available in the CMC and NCL 1.
I recall traveling to Santa Rose in 2009 where Fort Bragg fans outnumbered the Justin-Sienna fans 5 to 1 for the Division IV Championship. In 1999 the Fort Bragg fans filled Santa Rosa J.C.'s stadium. When the NCS changed its policy it certainly did not factor in a Fort Bragg fan's willingness to travel. And I would certainly like to know this, Since the CIF has instituted this new policy has the Championship game ever been hosted over 170 miles from the higher seeded team's home? I doubt it and can find no indication that this issue as arising before.
Many parents, grandparents, families and fans wish to attend this game. Travel to Ukiah is 1.5 hours. Santa Rosa 2.5 hours. Both which would allow Timberwolf fans the opportunity to travel and get home, late but home. Travel from Martinez will be 3.5 or more hours. Many families will not be able to make the trip, or will not be able to afford to rent a hotel room to spend the night. Many fans simply will not be able to attend. It is not too late to move the game. Even if the game is not played in Mendocino or Lake County it can still be moved to a location which will cut down on travel from Fort Bragg while still keeping it a reasonable distance from the lower seed.
You also state "I am disappointed that the game cannot be placed in a closer location, like Ft. Bragg High School" I think you are sincere in this statement. It would be great opportunity to bring a championship game to the North Coast. I assume that Fort Bragg would host the game if it is provided the chance. Has anyone asked? Fort Bragg would welcome the fans and players from St Vincent St Patrick who would enjoy a visit to the rugged, beautiful Mendocino Coast. Fort Bragg also has the ONLYstadium in the section with actual molded seats for every spectator (both visitors and home side) as opposed to bleachers. If the goal of the CIF is to encourage the educational nature of athletics this is certainly an opportunity to expose the visiting team to a unique part of California. Using the Alhambra site 7 out of 10 years? How do you think this makes the rest of the section spread out to the Oregon border feel. I can understand the convenience of the Alhambra site for NCS Staff, being only a few miles from San Ramon where the section office is, but this is horribly unfair to the rest of the section who do not live in the far south eastern tip of the section.
The NCS has the opportunity here to make a change to fix an obvious injustice which will cause a hardship to many, many people, including students, their families and fans. I urge the NCS to admit it has made a mistake and move the game to a site which actually complies with a reasonable interpretation of the NCS rules. If this game were moved to a site within Fort Bragg’s area, the stadium will be filled again just as it was in 1999 and 2009.
I appreciate that you and the NCS staff have a challenging job. I appreciate your personal efforts to institute competitive equity which has, in part, led to a public school competing for the championship. I will attend the game no matter where played and both teams will play with honor. Thank you for your time and I look forward to your reply.
Roy Mitchell Disappointed Spectator
Note for Lori Carter: your recent article stated that Fort Bragg lost the final game in 2009, this was an error on your part. The final score was 23-18 Fort Bragg the winner.
I appreciate so much the integrity of Lori to quickly admit her mistake. It's wonderful to interact with someone so down earth and willing to be forthright.
Great post, Roy. Let us know what Commissioner Lemmon says. I'm curious if it will be a retread of what he told the Press Democrat.
Regardless of what happens this year, the Board of Managers of the NCS will next meet in January and the Sports Advisory Committee of the NCS meets in March (I believe the second Monday). They might also have a meeting this December the week after the chamlionships. It would be great to have a number of representatives from member schools pushing this issue forward.
37 comments:
Newman vs st.bernards
St Bernards +7
Fort Bragg +1
Alhambra high school must have one hell of facility.
This is the 7th time in the past 10 years they will be hosting a D4 or D5 championship game. 7 OUT OF 10!?!
Makes you wonder why Alhambra keeps getting selected over all the other schools that apply to host every year.
What is going on here?
Fort Bragg +3
Newman +24
I am sure Alhambra is being selected all the time is because it is a central point of all the private schools in the bayarea
Wow...sorry about reposting D4 semifinal match up.
That is peculiar...Dublin High is another popular site for other divisions. They do seem to have their favorites. Again, talk to your schools and leagues. The NCS has to listen to them.
I won't preject a winner, but I believe we'll know what kind of game the D4 will be by the end of the first quarter, and D5 by the end of the first half.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Constitution Rule 106 says, in part:
3. Separate, geographically determined, conferences shall serve NCS member schools as follows
b Marin, Sonoma, Mendocino and Napa Counties (Thats the CMC)
So there's your geographic area definition. But wait, there's more:
106 B 1. says, in part:
"Basic leagues shall be composed of schools from a generally proximate geographical area."
So any school in Fort Bragg's league is in its geographical area, and also, any school in the conference. So the NCS made a mistake. They need to fix it.
They won't fix it so put on your traveling shoes.
Once again, you need to talk to your school and league.
Class A Dude. Who is saying they aren't sending this to their school and league. Nothing wrong with also making it public.
If you sent a complaint to your school or league, then make that part of your post. And by all means, let everyone know what their response was. That would give us something to chew on.
I never said "don't post this again" or "don't make this public". But my response to every post on this topic will be the same: You need to get the agents of change involved -- the schools and leagues.
The section office is in San Ramon I would be willing to guess all the section staff live in a relatively close radius. Dublin and Alhambra are very close. This makes it easier for section staff. How do you think this makes all the spectators who are spread out all the way to the Oregon border feel??
Is Gil saying that the game can be played in Fort Bragg if Fort Bragg asks? I do not believe Fort Bragg understood the consequence not checking a box. Timberwolf stadium certainly is adequate for the job.
In addition. Clear Lake is in our geographical area otherwise we would not be in the same league. They have told the CIF they want to host the game.
And how is Ukiah allowed to bow out? If they can bow out why cant Fort Bragg get back in?
Thanks!
Since neutrality is not a priority anymore and these section games are no longer the end of the season, it's time to simply play the games at the site of the higher seeded team. Eliminate all the suspense over how the policy will be twisted each year.
Let's go Wolves and Cards!!
Lemmon said his staff contacted Ukiah, but were told it were unable to host a game on Saturday.
“So we’re back to the bylaws,” he said. “If you can’t play in the geographic area of the higher seed, you play in the geographic area of the lower seed. We don’t meet in the middle.”
But Lemmon said even Ukiah would have been stretching the NCS definition of “geographic proximity.”
Geographic proximity? Geographic area? Geographical region?
We have heard 10 miles, 20 miles and that the 55 miles from Fort Bragg to Ukiah would have stretched the limit.
We have also heard from the NCS own constitution rules that conferences and leagues are made up of teams in Geographical Proximity or areas.
How can it be both?
It is whatever the NCS wants it to be when the NCS wants it to be. NCL/CMC needs to address this after the season because their members are the only ones affected by this.
This year in the post season in just D4 and D5 there have been 23 games played so far. Not one of those games has had a controversy about the location. The higher seed is the host! End of story! No need for pages of conflicting and confusing definitions and loop holes.
These games are no longer the end of the season as they were prior to the creation of state playoffs. The section final should be treated no differently than any other section playoff game. The host should be the highest seeded team. This will give all spectators more time to plan attending the game. Everyone will know the two possible locations two weeks prior. More time for people to make scheduling arrangements. Attendance will go up.
This is how the Northern Section does it. The higher seed team hosts the championship game.
It would eliminate the headache for section staff!!!!
I think that is the best way to go for section titles. And you'really right, it would end all the controversy at this level. Section winners and their fans might have to travel for a regional game, but they'd know that ahead of time.
Mr. Lemmon,
I read with interest your reply to Heath's letter which he posted on his blog as well as the November 30, 2016 article in the Press Democrat written by Lori Carter. On behalf of a small coastal community and our entire league, I urge the NCS to act now to change the site of the Division V Championship game. Steeling this game from our area, our entire league, would be a tragedy.
A letter sent to Gil Lemmon & Lori Carter today:
Part 1 of 3
Please address the following.
You state "Ft. Bragg is the higher seeded team and the first obligation is to place the game in the geographical area of the higher seeded team." How does the NCS define geographical area? In your alignment handbook leagues are based upon geographic proximity. Shouldn't any school in the NCL 1 be within Fort Bragg's geographic area? If yes then Clear Lake High School, among others, has indicated it wants to host the game.
I have reviewed the 2016 Verification of Championship Event Forms Football form on the CIF website. That form indicates the following schools (among others) applied to host a championship:
Ukiah, Clear Lake, Lower Lake, Middletown, and several other schools which are closer to Fort Bragg yet in the same area as the lower seed including Cardinal Newman (53 miles from the lower seed). You state that you are not going to set the game "in the middle". You fail to acknowledge that the lower seed would travel a lesser distance to Cardinal Newman than Fort Bragg would have had Ukiah been available. (57 miles) How is this fair or logical?
You indicate you discussed the issue with Karen Smith on either Thursday or Friday, November 17 or 18. You state, "The first question I asked was did Ft. Bragg designate their site. This is common for some schools since it assures that if their school is the higher seed in the finals that the game is played at their school, assuming that the school stadium meets all other requirements of hosting. In Ft. Bragg’s case the school did not designate their site." You then state " I suggested to Ms. Smith that she try to secure Ukiah HS, but also stated that if Ukiah is not available then NCS bylaws require that the game be placed in the geographical area of the lower seed." While I do not believe the first part of your statement (the underlined portion) is strictly accurate (i.e. you imply a home game to the higher seed) I do believe the jump from Ukiah to the lower seed's undefined "geographic area" ignored the other available sites; it gives no explanation for why Ukiah was no longer available and does not explain why a location like Cardinal Newman was not considered?
In addition, since the Ukiah location was no longer available, wouldn't it have have been appropriate to notify Fort Bragg of the fact that its closest geographic neighbor was no longer able to host? And Fort Bragg should also have been notified, at some point, that Ukiah was the only school who was available within the undefined "geographic area" for purposes of setting the home game. Fort Bragg could have then been in a position to make it clear to the section it wished to host.
In your comments made to Ms. Carter you state "Ukiah would have been stretching the NCS definition of "geographic proximity" On what do you base this claim? And, again, Cardinal Newman is closer to the lower seed than Fort Bragg is to Ukiah. Why is the game not being played in Santa Rosa? Are fans from the lower seed held to a lesser burden of travel?
Again, how does the NCS define geographic area? From what I have been able to find the term is used when determining conferences and leagues but is not defined elsewhere. Shouldn't the NCS and member schools be able to rely upon definitions actually found in NCS materials?
Fort Bragg's closest league opponent is in Willits, approximately on hour from Fort Bragg by bus. The next closest is Clear Lake. Fort Bragg students and fans regularly travel, in large numbers, to these schools. Fort Bragg residents and supporters consider it their duty to support the local teams. In this case you could expect a substantial number of Fort Bragg spectators to travel to a game within Fort Bragg's traditional geographic area.
Your letter offers no explanation as to why Ukiah is no longer available but Clear Lake, Lower Lake and Middletown are in Fort Bragg's league and members of the Coastal Mountain Conference, the scope of which is also based upon geography. It is clear that there are several sites available. Each of which would benefit from hosting a championship not only from the excitement of hosting the game but also from the concession sales such an event would generate. A game in Lake County would draw spectators from Fort Bragg, Clear Lake, Lower Lake, Kelsyville and Middletown. Shouldn't these communities have the opportunity to enjoy a division championship in their own back yard?
You also state "Alhambra is a designated site, arranged by NCS staff in advance of the championships and the school has hosted several championship games in the past several years." This is besides the point but also quite telling. Essentially this is an admission that the NCS had the site selected in advance of determining who was actually in the game. Many suspect that NCS staff assumed that the number one seed was going to win the game and acted accordingly. This was not the case and placing the game at this site does not take into account the multiple sites available in the CMC and NCL 1.
I recall traveling to Santa Rose in 2009 where Fort Bragg fans outnumbered the Justin-Sienna fans 5 to 1 for the Division IV Championship. In 1999 the Fort Bragg fans filled Santa Rosa J.C.'s stadium. When the NCS changed its policy it certainly did not factor in a Fort Bragg fan's willingness to travel. And I would certainly like to know this, Since the CIF has instituted this new policy has the Championship game ever been hosted over 170 miles from the higher seeded team's home? I doubt it and can find no indication that this issue as arising before.
Many parents, grandparents, families and fans wish to attend this game. Travel to Ukiah is 1.5 hours. Santa Rosa 2.5 hours. Both which would allow Timberwolf fans the opportunity to travel and get home, late but home. Travel from Martinez will be 3.5 or more hours. Many families will not be able to make the trip, or will not be able to afford to rent a hotel room to spend the night. Many fans simply will not be able to attend. It is not too late to move the game. Even if the game is not played in Mendocino or Lake County it can still be moved to a location which will cut down on travel from Fort Bragg while still keeping it a reasonable distance from the lower seed.
You also state "I am disappointed that the game cannot be placed in a closer location, like Ft. Bragg High School" I think you are sincere in this statement. It would be great opportunity to bring a championship game to the North Coast. I assume that Fort Bragg would host the game if it is provided the chance. Has anyone asked? Fort Bragg would welcome the fans and players from St Vincent St Patrick who would enjoy a visit to the rugged, beautiful Mendocino Coast. Fort Bragg also has the ONLYstadium in the section with actual molded seats for every spectator (both visitors and home side) as opposed to bleachers. If the goal of the CIF is to encourage the educational nature of athletics this is certainly an opportunity to expose the visiting team to a unique part of California. Using the Alhambra site 7 out of 10 years? How do you think this makes the rest of the section spread out to the Oregon border feel. I can understand the convenience of the Alhambra site for NCS Staff, being only a few miles from San Ramon where the section office is, but this is horribly unfair to the rest of the section who do not live in the far south eastern tip of the section.
The NCS has the opportunity here to make a change to fix an obvious injustice which will cause a hardship to many, many people, including students, their families and fans. I urge the NCS to admit it has made a mistake and move the game to a site which actually complies with a reasonable interpretation of the NCS rules. If this game were moved to a site within Fort Bragg’s area, the stadium will be filled again just as it was in 1999 and 2009.
I appreciate that you and the NCS staff have a challenging job. I appreciate your personal efforts to institute competitive equity which has, in part, led to a public school competing for the championship. I will attend the game no matter where played and both teams will play with honor. Thank you for your time and I look forward to your reply.
Roy Mitchell
Disappointed Spectator
Note for Lori Carter: your recent article stated that Fort Bragg lost the final game in 2009, this was an error on your part. The final score was 23-18 Fort Bragg the winner.
Thanks, Roy. Nice letter.
Please let me know if you get a response. Maybe another story is in order, especially if Lemmon is moved to act.
(and yes, I know I screwed up the 2009 game… I fixed it online. Thanks!)
Lori Carter...your awesome! One mistake every once in a while is o.k.!
I appreciate so much the integrity of Lori to quickly admit her mistake. It's wonderful to interact with someone so down earth and willing to be forthright.
Why can't North Coast Section staff admit mistakes?
Great post, Roy. Let us know what Commissioner Lemmon says. I'm curious if it will be a retread of what he told the Press Democrat.
Regardless of what happens this year, the Board of Managers of the NCS will next meet in January and the Sports Advisory Committee of the NCS meets in March (I believe the second Monday). They might also have a meeting this December the week after the chamlionships. It would be great to have a number of representatives from member schools pushing this issue forward.
ITS GAME DAY!!!!🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈
Traffic flow on Highway 37 is 10 MPH. Great game location .....
NOT!!!!!!
But then Alhambra high school won't be able to host a championship game 7 out of 10 years.
goldenslot mobile
gclub
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