Mr. Gibson,
The
winning record rule (now even record) has been a rule for around 18
years and I was a section employee responsible for writing the original
rule. It has
been followed consistently, and altered over the years a few times.
When comparing section teams with other sections NCS has always honored
the division placement of a school in another section in State
Championship sports. NCS has never collected the enrollment
numbers of other section schools in State Championship sports, and then
compare to see what division they would be within NCS. Therefore,
since the Northern Section lists Trinity in Division IV, NCS considers
this team a Division IV team. I believe the language
in the bylaw is confusing and NCS member schools need to adjust, which
staff will recommend. But the inclusion of McKinleyville was correct
and according to the practices of the section since inception of the
policy. Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Gil Lemmon, Commissioner of Athletics
North Coast Section, CIF
5 Crow Canyon Ct., Suite 209
San Ramon, CA 94583
31 comments:
There is no way the inclusion is correct. So he is saying if a D-4 NCS team defeated a D-3 Northern section team of the exact same enrollment they could not count that as a D-4 victory because they are classified D-3 by the North?
I do hope they clarify the language in the rule, but it is something they apply to all schools in the NCS when they play out of section. McKinlyeville understood BEFORE playing Trinity that it would count as an in-Division game. It just wasn't understood by the rest of us.
What is confusing about the language? Here is the NCS rule I just found on their website.
"Teams in its own division" is defined as any team whose grades 9-12 enrollment fall within the schools NCS football division.
It's referring to 9-12 enrollment having to fall into NCS divisions right in the NCS rule but the NCS is not going to follow their own rules?
Mr. Lemmon is a politician. Politicians and babies diapers have at least one thing in common.
Mr. Lemon is choosing not to follow a clearly stated rule which is included in the 2014 Bulletin Here is the link. http://cifncs.org/sports/football/files/champbull.pdf See page 3.
Either McKinlyville did not read this rule or did not care. But they know now.
How many other teams have qualified in the past using this loophole?
As it is McKinlyville has the only sub 500 record including, the win against Trinity. How does it rate a 7 seed? Who makes these decisions? The NCS could fix this problem by dropping Mckinlyville down to the last seed.
Lemon's statement does not make sense. He says NCS accepts the other sections classification, but isn't it up to the school to submit accurate information Fine lessons being taught here. Once again the CIF ignores rules when it suits them.
Dude...can you ask Mr Lemmon to identify any other team that has qualified in this manner in the past?
The name of the game next season is to schedule non league games against division 4 teams outside the ncs
The name of the game next season is to schedule non league games against division 4 teams outside the ncs
Just a cursory glance at past playoffs it looks like Sonoma Valley got in with a 4-6 record (1-5 in league). They were 2-3 in D3 games except when you factor in their game out of section with American Canyon. I don't know what the breakdown for D3 was back then and I know Calpreps enrollment numbers are not official, but it appears American Canyon was close to NCS D4. But the Sac-Joaquin Section gives ranges such as I-IV, which is what American Canyon was. Regardless of what their enrollment numbers were the NCS did not look at them. They focused solely on what Division they were in. Because they were I-IV, they could call them D3, giving Sonoma a .500 record against D3 competition.
Hey Dude.
Are talking about Sonoma Valley in 2011? If so D-4 did not go over 1000 students that year so American Canyon would have fit into NCS D-3 enrollment numbers. But their enrollment may have put them in D-4 in the Sac Joaquin that year.
After looking at it I think Sac Joaquin D-3 would have been American Rivers division. So they were D-3 in both. But that is a good eye on that one Dude.
But you're missing the point...it doesn't matter what American Canyon's enrollment numbers were, the NCS did not look at them. They only look to see what Division they are in. And I wouldn't rely on Calpreps enrollment numbers. According to them Clear Lake, Middletown and St. Helena should be D4 this year. The NCS does this in more sports than football. And they only look to include teams, not rule them out when interpreting this rule. Have a look at teams who would have been disqualified over the years had this rule been applied. I found at least two in the past seven years.
Who is the other example?
And why would the NCS have a rule that clearly states 9-12 enrollment fitting into NCS divisions and not even look at enrollment.
The NCS knows each and every other sections divisions do not match the same enrollment numbers.
Is this the first time they have been called out on this? It can't be can it?
Does any one else wonder what the seeding committee was thinking when they seeded a sub 500 team 7th while at the same time seeding the NCL one champion 8? In the last 6 years the league champ was never lower than 5 or 6.
You are assuming that the 2014 bulletin is meant to be black and white. What you think is clearly stated is riddled with loopholes you have to scour through the board of managers meeting minutes to find. When they say "any teams enrollment must equal..." it is tacitly implied that a team from the same division, regardless of its section, is equal. That's how they interpret the rule.
It's going to take a few heavy-hitting newspapers to rake them over the coals for this. Another thing that might help is the CIF standardizing the Divisions across the state. Then all D4 schools would be equal.
How about the NCS not worry about what name or number other sections put on each division and just go off enrollment numbers.
What happens when a team plays out of state and the division classifications are turned completely upside down with the smallest of small schools being division 1 and the largest schools being 4 or 5.
Why would it be any different for the NCS if a team plays out of state or out of section they know full well the divisions do not match up.
Anybody want to take up the counter point and defend the NCS on this one? ...
How in the heck a team with a sub .500 record was awarded a freaking home playoff game.
I do not think I have ever seen this happen before in D-4/Class A history. If it happened in another bracket I missed it. There have been 5-5 teams host a game, but never a team under .500.
Seems like a lot of comments coming from the Fort Bragg side on here. The bottom line is the bracket is out! You play Moreau! Prep for the game.. If you win that we will see how "Great" you really are when you drive to St. Mary's. Until then quit whining! Here is the deal, Moyer had a great team.. Rolled in to Ferndale and beat a great team.. They were an underdog, they won.. They went on to beat Justin Sienna.. They won the NCS D4 championship! Now the question remains.. Do you think he lost focus on the task at hand? Ferndale was a D5 school?!??!! Nope! That's why they play the game. Step up Fort Bragg!
Ferndale a great team? This year's team is literally (yes, literally) their worst team in at least 30 years.
Jack. It's the hypocracy of the NCS that's the point. They are big on the rules when it suits them. I hope every team and kid does well. Especially the boys from Fort Bragg and Mack. Now that would be a fantastic if improbable matchup for a final!
But, for future reference the seeding committee might want to look at page 54 of the 2014/2015 sports and general rulings handbook (located right there on its own site.). Not only does it use enrollment as the measuring stick but it also, specifically refers to the cif website for the "current divisions".
16.301h in the basketball section. Same language.
The bottom line is the committee made a mistake and is to proud to admit it.
Anonymous, it's a funny thing I told my players recently it's okay to be wrong. Everyone is wrong at some point in their life ( some at many points). What is not okay is to be wrong and not admit it. I flat out said grown ups have the hardest problem with this. I guess here is a specific example. It's crazy! Isn't there something about a governing body and when they don't follow their rules they have become a dictatorship? Everyone expects coaches to be leaders and great examples for their kids. Cif talks about sportsmanship and fair play? It's all lip service to obtain the mighty dollar.
Jack Tripper you must be new to this site. Of course there seems to be a lot of comments from the Fort Bragg side. NCL I fans (including a bunch of Fort Bragg) fans have dominated the talk since 2008. The subject might change (Public vs Private) but rest assured come playoff time something is going to blowup the site.
Oh and you said "prep for the game". Is this not how fans prep for games in the 21st century?
Hey Jack. Who has stated that Fort Bragg has a "Great" team this year?
Who is whining? Are you referring to the fans on this site or Fort Bragg filing with the NCS office?
And What does the 2009 NCS Championship team have to do with this years team? The only thing I can see they have in common is Clear Lake dominated Fort Bragg this year after the Timberwolves were up 28-3 in the fourth quarter. Kind of like Clear Lake dominated the second half when the Timberwolves were up 42-0 at halftime back in 2009.
Now, now children. Everyone needs to play nice.
Is Sullivan, from FB hurt?
Nope.
Yeah Sullivan is hurt he wasn't even at the game (broken hand). Their offense was totally different...
One of the FB players said he was best man in his older brothers wedding back in Texas.
Post a Comment