I have a complaint against the seeding committee in Div IV. This is not a complaint against any school, football team or players - just the seeding committee. Every year we see the teams with easy schedules and great W-L records getting high seeds. Last yeat the #1 seed (Ferndale) and #2 seed (Middleton) did not make the finals. This year the #1 (St. Mary) and #2 (Ferndale) lost their FIRST playoff game. The #1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 seeds are out of the playoffs.In short, the seeding committe needs to look past these inflated W-L records and reward the really good teams.
The seeding is never going to be perfect and it's something that should legitimately be debated. But to simply say team A plays in a larger league therefore they will always be seeded higher than an undefeated team B who plays in a league with smaller teams is just as unfair. There are a lot of really bad Div. III teams out there and some of those bad teams even made the playoffs.
And you are wrong when you say "Every year we see teams with easy schedules and great W-L records getting high seeds"...Justin Siena has been bounced early in the playoffs as a top seed as well (losing as a one seed to an eight seed in the first round) and Ferndale and Middletown have both won it all as a mid-seed in the past. Did the seeding committee perhaps give too much credence to teams that played in larger league those years?
It's never going to be perfect. The close games this weekend demonstrate how evenly matched these teams are.
That's true, but to some extent the seeding committee really should know better than to of made Justin THAT low of a seed. Defending champs, 5-1 record since their 0-4 start (against very tough competition), and 4 championships in 9 years should of garnered them more than a number 9 seed.
That said, what an incredible field of great teams this year. Hopefully the great games continue
To some extent I agree that some of the schools up north do have an advantage in terms of there schedule and overall win-loss records and if we had a eight team brackt this year two of the four semi-final teams wouldn't have even made the playoffs. That being said with the new playoff brackets every elgible team makes it. This gives everyone who deserves to be there a shot. Home field advantage is nice but both Justin and Valley Christian have proven that it can be overcome.
Class A Dude you are right it's always difficult to determine who the best team truly is. The seeding committee does there best, but most of the people on these committiess have little first hand knowledge of any of the teams there choosing from, making it very difficult for them. We also have to remember that coaches ratings of other teams play a pretty big role in the seeding selection. Often coaches will put teams in different rankings trying to set up mathces further down the road.
You have to be out of your mind to say Ferndale isnt a 2 seed, they are a great team. Ferndale lost to a FB team that is having one of the best years in school history with O Stats. How should a school with about 150 students get better teams to play, no bigger school will play them.
I admit I was surprised that Justin Siena was a 9 seed. I really thought they'd be anywhere from 5 to 7. I know St. Mary's wasn't happy about playing Justin Siena their first game out. Beyond the eight teams that played this weekend, McKinlyeville and Cloverdale also played great games. Ten teams in this year's playoff had a legitimate shot.
I agree that it is difficult to seed the Div IV teams because they play very different schedules. However, the degree of difficulty of the schedule should be given much more weight. The W-L records of teams that play weak schedules can be very deceiving. Does anyone think that JS was the 9th best team? Ask the #1 seed St. Mary or the #8 seed Brenan C. I bet none of the Div IV coaches thought that. Under the old system JS would have not made the playoffs this year. Does anyone think that if Salesian, SPSV, or JS had the Ferndale schedule that they would not be 10-0? This is not a knock on the great Ferndale football program - they (and others) just get too much consideration for their inflated W-L record. Lets get some people who know football to be on these committees. We can get anyone to rank teams by the W-L record.
the last post is wrong about one thing - Justin most certainly would of still made the playoffs under the old system this year.
In 2002 they started 2-5, finished 5-5, and then knocked off Middletown and #1 seed Cloverdale to make it to the championship game where Ferndale knocked them out.
I don't know it would have been close. Based on how the seedings went down this year I think the committee may have passed on 5-5 Justin for 8-2 Berean.
A quality opponent doesn't necessarily have to be a larger school. The only good way to seed with more accuracy is to have more head-to-head games with Div. IV opponents in non-league.
JS would have clearly been "passed-over" - they were seeded 9th. Under the old system only 8 teams go to the play-offs. They did pick Bernean ahead of JS. Then JS beat Bernean by THREE TOUCHDOWNS. Valley Christian would have also been out of the playoffs.
I am always susprised with the passion of the Ferndale supporters if anyone dare suggest that they might not be the best team in Div IV and should get a lower seed than #1 or 2. I have been to football games at Ferndale and I have the GREATEST RESPECT for their community, their school, their coaches and their football players. However, I think they get too much credit for a fine record against weak teams. This gives them as high seed and the great advantage of playing a home game with the visiting team traveling many hours to get there.
Class A Dude: Notice that the home team has won only 50% of the time.in the Div IV tournment. Of the three great games you mentioned this last week-end, the visiting team won 3 of the 4.
Having coached in Div. 4 for the past 5 years, I can attest that it is one of the hardest division when it comes to playoffs. What makes it difficult is the geography and the inconsistent level of competition.
I was with another coach (he is still in the playoffs), and he was complaining about his seeding hint, hint... and he was saying the best way to resolve this is to have an all div 4 league - everyone plays everyone. Well with the present system, that is actually what they did. 14 of the 17 Div. 4 teams made the playoffs. By doing this, they have virtually created a mini league. Who cares where they were seeded? As a coach, I didn't. I wanted a chance to play, and we got it. Won in the first round, and not in the second. I still had my chance to play.
This is not a negative comment regarding our teams from the north, but when it comes to competing with the teams from the bay area - they struggle; good records and all.
The question must be asked, is a 9-1, record (from the north) better than equal to a 7-3 or 6-4 record from the south? Based on recent history maybe not. But at least in this present format, it is decided on the field, and not in a small class room where coaches vote for who they like. Been there, done that.
Just an FYI... St. Mary's had a really good team. They had not played a game in 2 weeks (team in league forfeited, and then the bye for the playoffs) It is really tough to do, especially going into a playoff game.
Yes, St. Marys (#1 seed) had 2 weeks off, and Ferndale (#2 Seed) had one week off. They both lost. MAY have been a factor. Foltmer has made it quite clear he hates byes. Now we know why.
I would like to see a Div IV league but I do not think it will happen due to the geography and league committments. The question then is who is on the seeding committee. Coach - you will not like this but I think coaches should not be on the committee - they are VERY POLITCAL. I have seen a few of these "selection processes" and felt that the selection group was NOT really trying to seed the teams in a fair manner. They have great football knowledge but they (in my opinion) put that on hold and poltics took over. We need to get knowledgable football people that are not in Div IV.
In the present format, coaches are NOT involved in the seeding process. The football side of NCS, has adopted the format of basketball, using an independent committee who has followed all the teams throughout the season. Which is extremely tough for a coach.
In prior years, the coaches WERE the committee. And you are correct it became very political. "I'll scratch your back this year, you scratch mine next year". To be candid, this was very prevalent with the teams from the North. There is one coach, who would just come in and say "We are x-x, and should be the first seed.", that was the end of the discussion.
So in essence, your seeding depended upon intangibles, whichto some degree had nothing to do with team performance on the field.
As a coach, I prefer the new method.
Let me say, prior to the seeding, just based on records alone, I had picked the top 8 exactly as the committee. The only variable I had was Cloverdale, which had to win against St. Vincent to win league.
My team was in the middle, had a good first game, and played a great game on Saturday. Just came up short.
Just for laughs, if we had a Div. 4 League, it could be divided as follows:
NORTH (8 Teams)
Ferndale Fort Bragg Middletown Cloverdale Willits Kelseyville Clearlake McKinleyville
SOUTH (9 teams)
Salesians Siena St. Pat's St. Mary's St. Helena Berean Christian Valley Christian Harker Swett
I'm not to good with the geography with the north, so I don't know if this is doable. However, in the south, it is very doable. The farthest opponent would be Harker (San Jose).
If this isn't doable, then there should be some requirement to play your preseason games against Div. teams.
Coach, I agree with your north and south leagues. However, I think some schools would not join because thay want to play an easier schedule to inflate their W-L record. I am clearly a Justin Siena fan and father of one of the players. Do you really believe there were 8 better teams? Would you agree that most coaches did not want to get J-S early in the playoffs? There were many good teams in the playoffs except for Willits, Clear Lake and Harker. Any of the teams in the second week could have advanced (3 overtime games and one decided in the last two minutes). However I think the best 4 teams have emerged as proven on the football field. Unfortunately, I think Salesian is the team to beat although they were fortunate to get past a good SPSV team.
I'm not too sure about JS. I have not had the chance to see them play. I know they have a great QB, who seems to be running the show over there. I'm very familiar with their offense, and know that it's like good wine - it gets better with time.
However, from the little that I have seen of them, they are not as big upfront as in the past. This might cause some match up issues against BIG Salesian team.
I agree. I think Salesians is the team to beat - Good system, good athletes (RB rushed for 1500+ yards, 24 TDs), and big upfront. Not to mention a 6'8" soph.
Coach, I agree that Salesian is the team to beat. JS has a small team but they have won against bigger teams for several weeks now. Both Bernean and St. Mary's were much bigger. This week we play VC who will have about a 30 pound average bigger line. However, I think JS will handle them with conditioning and teamwork.
Coach and Anonymous from Joe I have just joined the group and found your conversations very interesting. I agree that the main thing to do is to get in the playoffs. However, I think seeding is important. For example, due to seeding, Middletown, Salesan, and SPSV got VERY easy first round home games. Their opponents were not really playoff level teams. The #1 and 2 seeds got a bye and a home game. True, they both lost but they had the advantage of having a week for the injuries to heal and got home field advantage. The key is to have NUTURAL football people not in Div IV do the seedings by considering the W-L record, the difficulty of the schedule and then applying good football common sense. You must be prepared to tell people with great records against weak oppononents that they are lower seeds than some teams with tougher schedules. As anonymous said, several Bay Area Div IV schools would have probably been undefeated if they had played Ferndale's schedule. I heard from a friend at St. Mary's. They did have some key players out but so did JS. The difference was in conditioning. In the last quarter the SM players were tired and the JS players took advantage of that. Joe
Joe, more than conditioning, the two week bye had to have been a factor. Playing at game speed is not duplicatable in practice. Especially with 2 weeks off. I think this was a huge factor for St. Mary's. Not taking anything from JS.
Coach, Maybe you are correct but after many years of football I know that the game is decided on the field. In any close game the losing team always has some legitimate reasons for losing. However those reasons do not matter - one wins and moves on and the other ends their season. I am not a particular JS fan but they have been somewhat disrespected due to their W-L record in the Division III Marin county league. I would bet that all the Div IV teams including yours would have two more losses if they played Novado and Marin Catholtic.
Anon wrote: This week we play VC who will have about a 30 pound average bigger line. However, I think JS will handle them with conditioning and teamwork.
I agree that conditioning and team work is more important than size. Also just as important is experience. The JS players and coaches have been playing together for some time now whereas the VC team has only been playing for a year - which is what I think is the #1 reason why they have so many penalties. They lack the discipline and field experience that the more seasoned teams have.
The best thing that VC has going for it is that everyone always EXPECTS them to lose. This coming game will be the 3rd game in a row where everyone is expecting them to lose, again. The fact that everyone looks down on them before they even play the game is a motivating factor that has served them well in the games against Cloverdale and Middletown. When a team has nothing to lose or prove, I think it actually makes them more relaxed and able to play their best.
I can assure you that JS is NOT taking VC lightly. There is a reason that they have defeated two higher seeded teams with good records. However, JS has also been taken lightly. I do not know of one football person that thought JS would defeat mighty St. Mary's at their home stadium. St. Mary clearly had bigger, faster, and more athelelic players. However, they did not have the same degree of dicipline, conditioning and determination.
Coach from Joe I must agree with someting anonymous said. I do not think people give enough weight to strength of schedule. Think about this - if the top DIV IV schools played Novado and Marin Cath (both top seeded Div III teams)as JS did instead of two of their weaker opponents they would all have two less wins and two more losses. Their record would be: Ferndale 8-3 (still against a weak schedule) Salesian 9-3 SPSV 6-6 VC 6-7 Fort Bragg 8-4 See the profound difference in strength of schedule?
I have no problem with reviewing the strength of schedule issue. I have always admitted that JS does play a harder schedule - not just because they play MC and Novato.
When using strength of schedule, you have to review the entire picture, and not just who they played. For example: Does is give me credence if we play and beat a Div. 3 team for example a Lower Lake, and beat them? Well if they are not as good as a top D4 team then maybe not. Those are the things I frequently consider.
The only two teams play in bigger leagues: JS and SPSV.
According to calpreps.com, JS has a 9.6 schedule rating and SPSV has a 3.5. Just looking at this rating could be deceiving, without looking at the full picture:
JS has played no D4 schools in pre-season or league, playing them, in league or pre-season, would lower that rating. In comparison, SPSV played 2 in pre-season, and 2 league.
Additionally, St. Mary's has a strength of schedule rating of 6, when they played almost the identical schedule as SPSV. What was the difference - 1 game. They played a D1 school in pre-season. and that one game apparently 2.5 points to them.
I AM NOT UNDERMINING OR SAYING THAT JS DID NOT PLAY A HARD SCHEDULE.
I am simply trying to provide my view when considering strength of schedule. However, if these two teams were to play on the field, I believe it would be one heck of a game.
Now when it come to our brothers in the North, yes there is a huge difference between a 9-1 team, and a 5-5 team from the south, playing in a D3 league. I agree with that whole heartedly.
One final note. If you put SPSV or St. Mary's in the MAL, I think they come out with the same league record as JS 5-2, make the adjustment for preseason - SPSV would be 7-3, SM 7-3 going into the playoffs.
I think what makes the difference this year for JS was their ALL of their pre-season games. (btw SM played and beat Acalanes)
Coach from Joe, I have no problems with your analysis. I just want a non Div IV committee to look at the W-L records AND the strength of schedule and make a common sense football decision. My opinion is that the current committee has a hard time POLITICALLY seeding a team with a worst record higher than a school with a better W-L record. Do you agree that JS, SPSV, Salesian, St. Mary's and maybe others would be 10-0 if they played Ferndale's schedule? These are the type of questions the committee should ask themselves. I have seen all of these teams - including yours - play the past 3 years. You might disagree, but based on my experience, I think MC and Novado would have EASILY defeated any Div IV team this year.
Joe, agreed. Anyone of the teams mentioned would have the same If not a similar record.
Now with that said, let me state that Ferndale is a D5 team. They petition up to play in D4. Not only do they play D4 teams, but they also play D3 team(s) - Fortuna and win. Fortuna was a D3 playoff team.
As for an independent committee, I'm not to sure how much more independent they could get, from what was done this year. I thought this year was completely fair. The only thing I didn't like was having so many teams in the playoffs. But it does appear to be producing some good games.
One final comment, if you are indicating that JS got a bad seed, maybe so, but let me simply state: They are still playing. I'd rather have been the 9th seed and still playing, than the 1st and at home.
I saw the St Mary's and JS game last Saturday. What impressed me the most about JS was their poise. Even though they were behind, they maintained their poise through out the game and continued to do their best and ended up winning the game. Very impressive. It is something that unfortunately I have not seen yet at VC. Repeatedly this year, once they have fallen behind it's like the air has been taken out of their tires and they go flat. So if JS gets ahead of VC I think that they will build on their lead and win the game. VC has yet to come back from more than a 1 touch down deficit.
OK, nobody else seems to want to key in on the real issue, so I will. It's not North vs. South, or anyything based upon geographics. It comes down to public vs. private schools. Valley Christian is three years old and beat a team/coach that has been around for 20+ years. Their the best team money can buy at the moment. Public schools have no chance in competing with the Salesians and St. Mary's in this league. You want to see how a public school will be next year? Look at their JV teams. The private schools teams change so much, depending on who they can rob from other schools in the area, you never know what you'll see. Look at the brackets Coach already came up with, they were pretty much public vs. private as it was.
>> Valley Christian is three years old and beat a team/coach that has been around for 20+ years. Their the best team money can buy at the moment.>> Totally Wrong! Valley Christian did NOT buy their team. They are a modest private school that does not have the funds to pay for a football team.
Because they are a low budget program, almost all of their equipment was donated and almost all of their coaches are volunteers. They do not have a football field and they do not even have a football weight room. Parella and Woodson are coaches because their kids were going to Valley Christian BEFORE they had a football program.
Valley Christian is a good example of how a school can get a football program going on a shoe string budget. No one is preventing public schools from recruiting volunteer coaches or soliciting for donations and equipment.
Public schools have the big advantage of being able to get funds from the government or getting local residents to pass propositions that raise money for their schools. Private schools have no such benefits. May be that is why the private schools have an advantage because they can only rely on themselves to raise funds, get donations and volunteers. Public school supporters need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and get busy raising their own funds and volunteers if that is why they believe they are at a disadvantage.
As far as recruiting goes, what aspiring football player wants to join a small unproven no-name team that does not have any football facilities and is playing their very first year of varsity football? The Valley Christian team is just a bunch of scrappy teens playing football who have a great fighting spirit that is not letting other teams with great track records intimidate them.
"As far as recruiting goes, what aspiring football player wants to join a small unproven no-name team that does not have any football facilities and is playing their very first year of varsity football? The Valley Christian team is just a bunch of scrappy teens playing football who have a great fighting spirit that is not letting other teams with great track records intimidate them."
How many car washes did VC do this year? How many athletes actually live anywhere close to that campus? Don't pull your excuses out. Don't pretend like it's just a fluke all these athletes showed up at VC, or Salesian, or any of the other private schools in this division. You guys pull the best athletes from the public schools in your area, and you know it.
I understand the concern about Private Schools. I am a father of a JS football player. Last year my son went to a public school so I have seen this from both sides. I can assure you that at JS I am constantly paying for MANY things that are provided free at a public school. The main difference that I see is that - in general - many exceptions I am sure - the average parent in a Private school is much more involved and participates much more personally and financially in their school activities - including football. I have nothing against VC - I am sure these are fine young men who are working hard but I think the same thing can be said about the JS players or players from other schools. One additional note - I am very close to the JS program and I can tell you that I know of no case where we have recruited any player from any schoolin any way.
How many of the private schools have to raise money to pay for the busses to get them to their away games? How many of those rosters include kids that live within other public school's districts, who's football team is average?
You may or may not actively go out and recruit, but don't say that the best athletes from public schools don't migrate to the private schools for sports. How that low of population of schools can have such high number of athletes is pretty amazing wouldn't you say?
$785 Registration, Capital Improvement and Yearbook Fees
Current Students: Parent Involvement Requirement - 20 Service and 15 Participation Hours by April 30, 2010 or $1,000, due May 15, 2010 $100 Required Yearly Raffles ($50 each Fall and Spring)
$500 Textbooks (approximate estimate) * All fees are subject to change for 2010-2011
How many of the 46, not 40, players on the football team pay these full fees at Salesian, and how many are on some type of scholarship or assistance program?
Was there a single public school in the finals of D-IV in the north coast section in ANY team sport during the 2008/09 school year? I don't think there was. It's time for California to impose an enrollment multiplier, just like many other states have done. Then it won't matter where kids decide to play.
Anon wrote: Don't pull your excuses out. Don't pretend like it's just a fluke all these athletes showed up at VC, or Salesian, or any of the other private schools in this division. You guys pull the best athletes from the public schools in your area, and you know it.
EXCUSES??? You’re the one making all the excuses for public schools. You sure love to insult public schools with your put downs of their athletes by saying that we have the best athletes from the public schools in our area. What about all the Monte Vista (public high school in Danville) athletes who are playing in Div I schools like USC, Stanford etc??? That is just one of the top public schools in our area that have exceptional athletes. Open your eyes and you will see how numerous top (and may I add world class) athletes who go to public schools.
Let me also enlighten you further: one of the main reasons (#1 for many parents) that people send their kids to private schools is so that their kids can be taught religious values that public schools are PROHIBITED from teaching. If it was not for that, many parents would rather save their money and send their kids to public schools. If their kid wants to play football it is a lot cheaper to send them to a public school than to a private school. Private school parents are not all idiots who just want to throw their money away when there is an option to get something for free.
Anon (December 3, 2009 1:08 PM) wrote : >>It's time for California to impose an enrollment multiplier. This is so that the losers can now become winners right?
What kind of American are you? My son is not a 4.0 student - is that fair? Based on your logic, the students in his class that get straight A’s should have their grades discounted or my son should get a grade multiplier so that he too can become a 4.0 student. Is that the right thing to do? Is winning a football game something that each school is entitled to get???
Why isn’t anyone talking about how Middletown annihilated Harker (a VERY rich private school) in the first round of playoffs by the score of 62-0???? Its OK for Middletown to gleefully destroy a private school but not OK for a private school to score a 1 point upset victory over Middletown? What kind of double standard is this???
Anon (December 3, 2009 1:08 PM) wrote : >>It's time for California to impose an enrollment multiplier. Since you are so desperate for your public school to win and never get beaten by a private school, why don’t you propose that we eliminate scoring all together so that everyone can be a winner and all football players can go home with a trophy. This way you won’t have to worry about which athletes go to private schools.
When our brave fore fathers fought the war of independence, you never heard them complaining about how unfair it was for the British to have superior weapons, superior training, superior funding, and a much larger army and navy. They just went to battle determined to defeat the superior British army and the rest is history. If a public school feels that a private school has certain advantages over them they may want to emulate what our fore fathers did to the British army and outfight them on the playing field.
I can tell you with 100% confidence that the overwhelming reason people send their kkids to private schools is for a better education - football has nothing to do with the decision.
Let me get this straight - you can not beat the private schools so we should change the rules so you can win. Incidently, JS does play EVERY game agaist much larger schools. Check the student population of the schools in the Marin County league.
Wuaaaaah… Mommy…Daddy… the private schools beat us in football!!! Please tell the government to change the rules so that we can win every game against the private schools. Its not fair for them to win, it is only fair if a public school wins.
Mommy…please have the cops handcuff their receivers so that they can’t catch a ball, this way for sure we can beat them. Daddy…we have no confidence in our own abilities and need you to make the government force private schools to only have 4 players at a time on the playing field so that we can win every game. Wuaaahh… do it now Daddy! What are you waiting for???
Waaa, my son wants a championship, so we're going to enroll him in a school that will pay for his education and get him a sports championship as well. If you private school people are so high and mighty, why are you so opposed to a private/public school playoff system. Too scared to face off against schools that recruit top athletes as well? I know you guys are use to facing off against the lower competition, but give it a try, you might like it. Take St. Vincent out of Petaluma, they go up and play with the big boys and get spanked, so they keep that enrollment right at 399 so they can play in the DV bracket. Sounds and looks way too familar to what the DIV private schools are doing.
I do not know what to make of this private school/public school discussion. There are very good teams from both groups. I think the good teams come from schools who have a tradition of winning, good coaches, supportive parents and determined kids who work hard in the off-season. Some of the successful teams are Private and some are public.
Anon wrote: >>Waaa, my son wants a championship, so we're going to enroll him in a school that will pay for his education and get him a sports championship as well.>> Wow, you are assuming all the good players in private schools are poor kids who are going there for free? What a bigot. In public schools they ALL are getting their education for free.
Anon wrote: >>Too scared to face off against schools that recruit top athletes as well? I know you guys are use to facing off against the lower competition, but give it a try, you might like it.>>
#1 Sacred??? LOL… you’re the one who wants to change the rules because you are afraid to lose against a private school. Fact: JS, VC, etc play against strong powerhouse teams that beat them - just look at their schedule - why do you think the regular season record of VC and JS are both 5-5?. But unlike you they are not whining about it.
#2 So you are saying that the top public schools (Middeltown, Cloverdale etc) are lower competition? What about Middletown crushing Harker 62-0????? Why don’t you give the public schools the credit they deserve? Why do you always have to put them down as inferior schools. Please, the public school kids deserve credit for their wins. Middletown lost only because VC got lucky. One more time: Stop putting down public schools by saying they are inferior - they are not! I bet you anything, if Middletown were given a chance to play VC again today they would jump on it and would never in a million years cower in fear against a private school. Have some pride man.
Anon wrote: >> they keep that enrollment right at 399 so they can play in the DV bracket. Sounds and looks way too familar to what the DIV private schools are doing.>> Wow, so your team loses a football game and you concoct all these conspiracy theories about private schools… you are truly pathetic. I am sorry that you have such an inferiority complex.
Being a public school coach, I can see both sides. Yes, all in all, we need to prepare to play the game, no matter who we are facing. Public or private, we need to play. Private schools have a definite advantage. They may have the same enrollment, but the quality of the families, the quality of the athletes, and the pure number of the ahtletes is no where close to what is represented in the public school programs. Look at this weekends only surviving public school in DIV, Fort Bragg. They have 24 players who are on their 13th week of the season. I would venture to say that the starting football players in Fort Bragg have had to endure one hell of a lot more football this season, then the starting players at Salesian. Fort Bragg doesn't have the luxury of having a roster of 46, with back ups at every position. Ferndale does it with 21. I'd like to see these private schools make it through a year with 5-6 quality athletes and a supporting class of average athletes like these public schools do.
Anon Dec 3 10:15PM wrote: >>Too scared to face off against schools that recruit top athletes as well? I know you guys are use >>to facing off against the lower competition, but give it a try, you might like it.
Anon, clearly you do not know the facts of this season and are an ignorant person. You can keep yourself from sounding like you are uneducated if you will just do a simple search of the facts first before making your accusations.
This season Justin-Sienna: Lost 41-0 against Marin Catholic Lost 42-0 against Novato Lost 48-39 against Menlo
This season Valley Christian: Lost 42-13 against Berean Lost 42-23 against Sacred Heart Lost 40-7 against Salesian
This season Harker: Lost 62- against Middletown Lost 37-7 against Salesian Lost 48-13 against Valley Christian
Middletown only lost 2 games: 1 by 8 points and the other by 1 point. Cloverdale only lost 2 games: Both by only 10 points. Fort Bragg lost only 2 games: 1 by 8 points and the other by 17 points.
So who exactly is afraid to face off against schools with top athletes? It’s definitely not the private schools!
There are some very important things not beng considered in this arguement. First off not all private schools have top level athletes. Any one familiar with Napa knows that traditionally the best football players in the town go to Napa high not Justin. Justin has never beat anyone by out athleting them, this was clearly evident against St Mary's last weekend and Salesian in last years finals.
I can't speak for any of the other private schools in the division but Justin has one player that runs in 4.6's and this is one of the faster teams they have had.
What seperates the two most succesfull schools in d IV from the rest of the pack? Both Ferndale and Justin have always played stellar championship level defense, PERIOD. This allows both of these schools to beat teams that they cant touch athletically. I you have anything to complain about talk to your own coaches about how much time they spend on their offenses compared to defenses.
One more point, why do parents in Richmond and Vallejo choose to send their kids to Salesian and St Pats...because the public schools in those areas are a joke. So lets blame parents for trying to give their kids a chance to be succesful in life...somethings are a lot bigger than football programs.
Let me review - Justin Siena is having an off-year: JS has a bad regular season record: Justin Siena is seeded the 9th best team in DIV IV. Tonight they beat VC 48-23 to go to the DIV IV finals.. VC scored with one second left against the second team to make it seem closer that it was. Congratulation to these young men who overcame all of the obstacles and doubts.
I know the public school- private school debate will always rage on, but you have to keep perspective. Do you really want an NCL North/South and HDNL Little Five playoff each year? That would get boring fast. How about an all Bay Area "Private" section? Not much better there. What makes this Division exciting is the diversity of teams spread out from the north to the Bay Area. Seeding will always be an issue, but as long as the NCS keeps the current playoff format, all the deserving teams will get in.
Second, the past 12 years, private schools have won 6 titles and public schools 6. The private schools have done better the past six years, but the public schools did equally well the six years prior. It's all cyclical.
From a JS parent: I think Salesian will easily beat Ft. Bragg today. Ft. Bragg has not really beaten any quality team in the regular season. They lost to both Cloverdale and Middletown (both lost to VC in play-offs).Ft. Bragg is a good example of a team that plays a very easy schedule and gets an impressive but misleading W-L record. They beat a very over-rated Ferndale in the play-offs but will not be able to handle the size and speed of Salesian. Prediction: Salesian 44-21 However, I hope Ft. Bragg wins
From BigMike, More fuel to the strength of schedule fire. I agree that several Div IV teams play weak schedules - get impressive but misleading W-L records, get high seeds, and then get defeated in the playoffs by lower seeded teams who were better all along but played harder schedules and hence had worst W-L records. A few examples: Middleton 9-1 strength of schedule minus 8.0 seeded 4th Cloverdale 9-1 Strength of schedule minus 8.4 seeded 5th Ferndale 10-0 Strength of schedule minus 8.2 seeded 2nd What do these high seeds have in common? They all lost to lower seeds in the first or second round of the playoff. No one who knows football should be surprised.
BigMike from Joe, To add to your point Justin Siena 5-5 regular season Strength of schedule not a minus but a PLUS 9.8 seeded 9th JS in the finals and has defeated three other playoff teams including the #1 seed St. Mary. Meanwhile all of these high seeds (except Salesian) have ended their season. I am sure the seeding committe next year will again seed these schools with weak schedules very high. This committe works very hard to make sure they do not learn form experience
Strength of schedule is important, but it shouldn't be the only factor. How soon we forget Justin Siena getting the number one seed twice and getting bumped before the finals (once they were routed by the 8 seed in the first round). The street goes both ways. You complain now, and the seeding committee will lower the seeds of the public school teams, and raise those who play Div. II and III schools. After a couple of seasons, they get bumped in the first or second round and then we come back to where we are now.
One thing you are forgetting. The team that is a league champion hosts the games.
I have just observed the last two seasons so I have no knowledge of past years. I do know what has happened the past two years and Joe and anonymous have made good points. I do not think that anyone says consider only strength of schedule. Step 1 Consider the W-L record Step 2 Consider the strength of schedule Step 3 Use common sense football knowledge to put step one and step 2 together. I know that teams that have easy schedules and good W-L records do not want this kind of football analysis. If we seed based on W-L records a computer or trained monkey can do the seedings. Wait - Maybe I have descovered the real process.
What a wonderful game - HS football!!! I have the greatest respect for all of these players. Football requires a great deal of dedication and sacrafice and these young men could hae choosen an easier path - but they didn't. I am reminded of a quote from General Douglas MacArthur during WW2: "Upon the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other fields on other days will bear the fruit of victory" Nick
The analysis you’re referring to is much more accurate when Div. IV teams play other Div. IV teams in non-league games. How many Div. IV teams did JS play this year outside of the playoffs? NONE. So the only thing the seeding committee had to go on was Justin Siena losing to Acalanes by 2 touchdowns and St. Mary’s beating Acalanes by two touchdowns. St. Mary’s v. Salesian was a competitive game (1 TD difference) and Salesian v. Middletown was a competitive game (1 TD difference). How can you say with complete certainty that if Fort Bragg or Ferndale played the same schedule Justin Siena did that their records wouldn’t be the same or better than that of JS?
By the way, over all, Ferndale and Justin Siena are 2-2 against each other.
Correction on the last comment. Justin did play Division IV team, but they are in the CCS, Menlo. They beat Justin in a shoot out and made it to the finals of the CCS Division IV playoffs. Also Ferndale and Justin may be 2-2 but every single one of those games was played up north.
As a Justin Siena fan I should be happy that we are in the finals and forget about the seeding committee. However, one last comment. The great minds on the seeding committe should think about this fact - their #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6 and #8 of 14 seeds are eliminated leaving the 7th and 9th seeds in the finals. Can ANYONE SAY THEY DID A DECENT JOB?
correction, Justin has played Ferndale 5 times all up north. 2000 finals; 2002 final 2003 finals; 2005 semi-finals 2008 semi-finals and Justin has won 3 of the 5
To the JS parent...Looks like you got your score backwards. Fort Bragg not only won the game, but played toe to toe with Salesian. We may not have the numbers or the money that you private schools have, but we have a heart of gold. You people down in the cities have no clue how small town football works. How can Ferndale be overated?? They play anybody and everybody they can in their area, and they have won 60 out of their last 67 games. Fort Bragg travels at the bare minimum one hour to play the closest team (Willits). They are a PUBLIC school, they don't have rich mommies and daddies to pay for them to travel everywhere. They had to raise their own money just to pay for the busses to take them to their games this year, their school district paid for NOTHING. They lost two games to two team in the playoffs. They beat the teams they should have beat, and they did that well.
Ferndale, Middletown, Fort Bragg, you can say what you want about strength of schedule. These teams don't have the luxury of having an abundance of schools within a couple hours drive of them. They don't have the ablility to draw in athletes from other schools in their area. They play the hand they've been dealt, and they do it pretty damn well.
I was very dissappointed in some of the players/coaches/fans while sitting and watching the game in Salesian.
#1- When Salesian's player was hurt, our players were on a knee and very repsectful to the fact that they had a player down. When our player was down, the Salesian players were milling around and yelling across the field to our players.
#2- I'm watching the players/coaches shaking hands after the game, #78 and a few other Salesian players didn't even walk through the line, and even worse, their head coach backed away and refused to shake our head coaches hand after the game.
#3- Throughout the game Salesian fans (a few of them) were very rude and disrespectful to those of us who made the trek down to watch our sons play a game.
I thought the whole point of a private catholic school like this is to get away from these actions, not encourage them.
I am very disappointed to hear about the low class behavior by the Salesian head coach and many others on their side. Hey... you guys are giving Catholic schools a bad name with such behavior and are reinforcing the negative image your school has for being a dirty team. But then again maybe you guys don't care about Catholic teachings about kindness to others and are only there to win football games and nothing else.
I want to congratulate the JS football team and coaches for their exceptional performance in defeating VC. The were clearly a much better team in every aspect and basically totally dominated the game and scored at will. VC had never faced a team that had mastered the Veer offense like JS. Both the VC rookie coaching staff and players did not know how to deal with it and were consequently thrashed by JS. In a few years, the coaching staff and players hopefully will find a way to deal with this style of offense.
While the JS players and coaches were a class act, I was disappointed to see that their student body was not. As VC struggled feebly to fight back I was surprised at the derogatory group taunts from the student section. When VC scored their second touch down I was surprised to hear their loud chants of “look at the score board” over and over - rubbing it in that they were stomping VC. And later on they kept gleefully chanting “one more score”. It would be one thing to do this if they were playing a tough arch rival like Marin Catholic who crushed JS 41-0 or Novato who blew away JS 42-0, but they were playing a much weaker first year team. I have never seen such coordinated low class behavior from a student body fan section.
VC was also thrashed 42-23 by Sacred Heart, 40-7 by Salesian, and 42-13 by Berean, and no one at those schools taunted or belittled VC. They were all magnanimous in victory and very respectful. Sacred Heart (to my surprise) even had a large banner that said “Welcome Valley Christian” - which is something I don’t expect any school to do but it showed a lot of class on their part.
Now I can see why so many other schools and parents hate JS and are trying to get them out of Div IV and into a tougher division so that they don’t have to deal with them anymore. I used to think it was just jealousy - now I know better. Its too bad because I think they have a very good football team. I’m surprised that since they are a Catholic school that the students are not taught to be Magnanimous in Victory and Gracious in Defeat.
I have to agree as a Justin supporter that the behavior of the student body, in terms of the taunting, was not what you would call a class act.
That being said, it is hardly a reason to "hate" one of the classiest programs in Northern California. "Derogatory" is a pretty strong word choice. I highly doubt that anyone from VC could claim that some was rude or derogatory to them personally.
I have been around high school football for a while and can say that I have heard a lot worse at more than one game. Whether it was a rivay game or not, it was the semi-finals of the Championship tournment and the students where a little over excited. The student body of Justin Siena is widely know to be made up of a lot of quality young men and women. I can understand someone being upset at the mild taunting but that was all it was at best. No need to build anamosty between schools.
VC has an excellent young program. The program seems to have a high level of support within its community, good coaches, and talented players.
PS This constant argument about Justin being moved up a division is really getting old. The enrollment this year is under 600 students and well under the division limits. Justin football is good simply because of the high level of coaching and deidcation of the players. They are not loaded with college talent and rarely send anyone division 1. Plenty of other schools in D IV have better athletes, not too many teams are as well coached on both sides of the ball. I can only think of one, our rivals from the north.
77 comments:
Greatest week of NCS Division IV playoff football ever? Might be. I think you'd have a hard time beating it.
I have a complaint against the seeding committee in Div IV. This is not a complaint against any school, football team or players - just the seeding committee. Every year we see the teams with easy schedules and great W-L records getting high seeds. Last yeat the #1 seed (Ferndale) and #2 seed (Middleton) did not make the finals. This year the #1 (St. Mary) and #2 (Ferndale) lost their FIRST playoff game. The #1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 seeds are out of the playoffs.In short, the seeding committe needs to look past these inflated W-L records and reward the really good teams.
The seeding is never going to be perfect and it's something that should legitimately be debated. But to simply say team A plays in a larger league therefore they will always be seeded higher than an undefeated team B who plays in a league with smaller teams is just as unfair. There are a lot of really bad Div. III teams out there and some of those bad teams even made the playoffs.
And you are wrong when you say "Every year we see teams with easy schedules and great W-L records getting high seeds"...Justin Siena has been bounced early in the playoffs as a top seed as well (losing as a one seed to an eight seed in the first round) and Ferndale and Middletown have both won it all as a mid-seed in the past. Did the seeding committee perhaps give too much credence to teams that played in larger league those years?
It's never going to be perfect. The close games this weekend demonstrate how evenly matched these teams are.
Class A Dude -
That's true, but to some extent the seeding committee really should know better than to of made Justin THAT low of a seed. Defending champs, 5-1 record since their 0-4 start (against very tough competition), and 4 championships in 9 years should of garnered them more than a number 9 seed.
That said, what an incredible field of great teams this year. Hopefully the great games continue
To some extent I agree that some of the schools up north do have an advantage in terms of there schedule and overall win-loss records and if we had a eight team brackt this year two of the four semi-final teams wouldn't have even made the playoffs. That being said with the new playoff brackets every elgible team makes it. This gives everyone who deserves to be there a shot. Home field advantage is nice but both Justin and Valley Christian have proven that it can be overcome.
Class A Dude you are right it's always difficult to determine who the best team truly is. The seeding committee does there best, but most of the people on these committiess have little first hand knowledge of any of the teams there choosing from, making it very difficult for them. We also have to remember that coaches ratings of other teams play a pretty big role in the seeding selection. Often coaches will put teams in different rankings trying to set up mathces further down the road.
Just some stuff to think about.
You have to be out of your mind to say Ferndale isnt a 2 seed, they are a great team. Ferndale lost to a FB team that is having one of the best years in school history with O Stats. How should a school with about 150 students get better teams to play, no bigger school will play them.
I admit I was surprised that Justin Siena was a 9 seed. I really thought they'd be anywhere from 5 to 7. I know St. Mary's wasn't happy about playing Justin Siena their first game out. Beyond the eight teams that played this weekend, McKinlyeville and Cloverdale also played great games. Ten teams in this year's playoff had a legitimate shot.
I agree that it is difficult to seed the Div IV teams because they play very different schedules. However, the degree of difficulty of the schedule should be given much more weight. The W-L records of teams that play weak schedules can be very deceiving. Does anyone think that JS was the 9th best team? Ask the #1 seed St. Mary or the #8 seed Brenan C. I bet none of the Div IV coaches thought that. Under the old system JS would have not made the playoffs this year. Does anyone think that if Salesian, SPSV, or JS had the Ferndale schedule that they would not be 10-0? This is not a knock on the great Ferndale football program - they (and others) just get too much consideration for their inflated W-L record.
Lets get some people who know football to be on these committees. We can get anyone to rank teams by the W-L record.
the last post is wrong about one thing - Justin most certainly would of still made the playoffs under the old system this year.
In 2002 they started 2-5, finished 5-5, and then knocked off Middletown and #1 seed Cloverdale to make it to the championship game where Ferndale knocked them out.
I don't know it would have been close. Based on how the seedings went down this year I think the committee may have passed on 5-5 Justin for 8-2 Berean.
Which would of been a travesty.
A quality opponent doesn't necessarily have to be a larger school. The only good way to seed with more accuracy is to have more head-to-head games with Div. IV opponents in non-league.
JS would have clearly been "passed-over" - they were seeded 9th. Under the old system only 8 teams go to the play-offs. They did pick Bernean ahead of JS. Then JS beat Bernean by THREE TOUCHDOWNS.
Valley Christian would have also been out of the playoffs.
I am always susprised with the passion of the Ferndale supporters if anyone dare suggest that they might not be the best team in Div IV and should get a lower seed than #1 or 2. I have been to football games at Ferndale and I have the GREATEST RESPECT for their community, their school, their coaches and their football players.
However, I think they get too much credit for a fine record against weak teams. This gives them as high seed and the great advantage of playing a home game with the visiting team traveling many hours to get there.
Again, head-to-head match-ups is the best way to determine seeds.
It's a delicate balance between overall record and strength of schedule. Without head-to-head match-ups, the seeding process is pretty subjective.
Class A Dude:
Notice that the home team has won only 50% of the time.in the Div IV tournment. Of the three great games you mentioned this last week-end, the visiting team won 3 of the 4.
It will be interesting to see if the trend continues.
Having coached in Div. 4 for the past 5 years, I can attest that it is one of the hardest division when it comes to playoffs. What makes it difficult is the geography and the inconsistent level of competition.
I was with another coach (he is still in the playoffs), and he was complaining about his seeding hint, hint... and he was saying the best way to resolve this is to have an all div 4 league - everyone plays everyone. Well with the present system, that is actually what they did. 14 of the 17 Div. 4 teams made the playoffs. By doing this, they have virtually created a mini league. Who cares where they were seeded? As a coach, I didn't. I wanted a chance to play, and we got it. Won in the first round, and not in the second. I still had my chance to play.
This is not a negative comment regarding our teams from the north, but when it comes to competing with the teams from the bay area - they struggle; good records and all.
The question must be asked, is a 9-1, record (from the north) better than equal to a 7-3 or 6-4 record from the south? Based on recent history maybe not. But at least in this present format, it is decided on the field, and not in a small class room where coaches vote for who they like. Been there, done that.
Just an FYI... St. Mary's had a really good team. They had not played a game in 2 weeks (team in league forfeited, and then the bye for the playoffs) It is really tough to do, especially going into a playoff game.
Yes, St. Marys (#1 seed) had 2 weeks off, and Ferndale (#2 Seed) had one week off. They both lost. MAY have been a factor. Foltmer has made it quite clear he hates byes. Now we know why.
I would like to see a Div IV league but I do not think it will happen due to the geography and league committments.
The question then is who is on the seeding committee. Coach - you will not like this but I think coaches should not be on the committee - they are VERY POLITCAL. I have seen a few of these "selection processes" and felt that the selection group was NOT really trying to seed the teams in a fair manner. They have great football knowledge but they (in my opinion) put that on hold and poltics took over. We need to get knowledgable football people that are not in Div IV.
Anon:
I absolutely agree with you!!
In the present format, coaches are NOT involved in the seeding process. The football side of NCS, has adopted the format of basketball, using an independent committee who has followed all the teams throughout the season. Which is extremely tough for a coach.
In prior years, the coaches WERE the committee. And you are correct it became very political. "I'll scratch your back this year, you scratch mine next year". To be candid, this was very prevalent with the teams from the North. There is one coach, who would just come in and say "We are x-x, and should be the first seed.", that was the end of the discussion.
So in essence, your seeding depended upon intangibles, whichto some degree had nothing to do with team performance on the field.
As a coach, I prefer the new method.
Let me say, prior to the seeding, just based on records alone, I had picked the top 8 exactly as the committee. The only variable I had was Cloverdale, which had to win against St. Vincent to win league.
My team was in the middle, had a good first game, and played a great game on Saturday. Just came up short.
Just for laughs, if we had a Div. 4 League, it could be divided as follows:
NORTH (8 Teams)
Ferndale
Fort Bragg
Middletown
Cloverdale
Willits
Kelseyville
Clearlake
McKinleyville
SOUTH (9 teams)
Salesians
Siena
St. Pat's
St. Mary's
St. Helena
Berean Christian
Valley Christian
Harker
Swett
I'm not to good with the geography with the north, so I don't know if this is doable. However, in the south, it is very doable. The farthest opponent would be Harker (San Jose).
If this isn't doable, then there should be some requirement to play your preseason games against Div. teams.
Coach,
I agree with your north and south leagues. However, I think some schools would not join because thay want to play an easier schedule to inflate their W-L record.
I am clearly a Justin Siena fan and father of one of the players. Do you really believe there were 8 better teams? Would you agree that most coaches did not want to get J-S early in the playoffs?
There were many good teams in the playoffs except for Willits, Clear Lake and Harker. Any of the teams in the second week could have advanced (3 overtime games and one decided in the last two minutes). However I think the best 4 teams have emerged as proven on the football field. Unfortunately, I think Salesian is the team to beat although they were fortunate to get past a good SPSV team.
Anon:
I'm not too sure about JS. I have not had the chance to see them play. I know they have a great QB, who seems to be running the show over there. I'm very familiar with their offense, and know that it's like good wine - it gets better with time.
However, from the little that I have seen of them, they are not as big upfront as in the past. This might cause some match up issues against BIG Salesian team.
I agree. I think Salesians is the team to beat - Good system, good athletes (RB rushed for 1500+ yards, 24 TDs), and big upfront. Not to mention a 6'8" soph.
Coach,
I agree that Salesian is the team to beat. JS has a small team but they have won against bigger teams for several weeks now. Both Bernean and St. Mary's were much bigger. This week we play VC who will have about a 30 pound average bigger line. However, I think JS will handle them with conditioning and teamwork.
Coach and Anonymous from Joe
I have just joined the group and found your conversations very interesting.
I agree that the main thing to do is to get in the playoffs. However, I think seeding is important. For example, due to seeding, Middletown, Salesan, and SPSV got VERY easy first round home games. Their opponents were not really playoff level teams. The #1 and 2 seeds got a bye and a home game. True, they both lost but they had the advantage of having a week for the injuries to heal and got home field advantage.
The key is to have NUTURAL football people not in Div IV do the seedings by considering the W-L record, the difficulty of the schedule and then applying good football common sense. You must be prepared to tell people with great records against weak oppononents that they are lower seeds than some teams with tougher schedules. As anonymous said, several Bay Area Div IV schools would have probably been undefeated if they had played Ferndale's schedule.
I heard from a friend at St. Mary's. They did have some key players out but so did JS. The difference was in conditioning. In the last quarter the SM players were tired and the JS players took advantage of that.
Joe
Joe, more than conditioning, the two week bye had to have been a factor. Playing at game speed is not duplicatable in practice. Especially with 2 weeks off. I think this was a huge factor for St. Mary's. Not taking anything from JS.
Coach,
Maybe you are correct but after many years of football I know that the game is decided on the field. In any close game the losing team always has some legitimate reasons for losing. However those reasons do not matter - one wins and moves on and the other ends their season.
I am not a particular JS fan but they have been somewhat disrespected due to their W-L record in the Division III Marin county league. I would bet that all the Div IV teams including yours would have two more losses if they played Novado and Marin Catholtic.
Anon wrote: This week we play VC who will have about a 30 pound average bigger line. However, I think JS will handle them with conditioning and teamwork.
I agree that conditioning and team work is more important than size. Also just as important is experience. The JS players and coaches have been playing together for some time now whereas the VC team has only been playing for a year - which is what I think is the #1 reason why they have so many penalties. They lack the discipline and field experience that the more seasoned teams have.
The best thing that VC has going for it is that everyone always EXPECTS them to lose. This coming game will be the 3rd game in a row where everyone is expecting them to lose, again. The fact that everyone looks down on them before they even play the game is a motivating factor that has served them well in the games against Cloverdale and Middletown. When a team has nothing to lose or prove, I think it actually makes them more relaxed and able to play their best.
I can assure you that JS is NOT taking VC lightly. There is a reason that they have defeated two higher seeded teams with good records.
However, JS has also been taken lightly. I do not know of one football person that thought JS would defeat mighty St. Mary's at their home stadium. St. Mary clearly had bigger, faster, and more athelelic players. However, they did not have the same degree of dicipline, conditioning and determination.
Coach from Joe
I must agree with someting anonymous said. I do not think people give enough weight to strength of schedule. Think about this - if the top DIV IV schools played Novado and Marin Cath (both top seeded Div III teams)as JS did instead of two of their weaker opponents they would all have two less wins and two more losses. Their record would be:
Ferndale 8-3 (still against a weak schedule)
Salesian 9-3
SPSV 6-6
VC 6-7
Fort Bragg 8-4
See the profound difference in strength of schedule?
I have no problem with reviewing the strength of schedule issue. I have always admitted that JS does play a harder schedule - not just because they play MC and Novato.
When using strength of schedule, you have to review the entire picture, and not just who they played. For example: Does is give me credence if we play and beat a Div. 3 team for example a Lower Lake, and beat them? Well if they are not as good as a top D4 team then maybe not. Those are the things I frequently consider.
The only two teams play in bigger leagues: JS and SPSV.
According to calpreps.com, JS has a 9.6 schedule rating and SPSV has a 3.5. Just looking at this rating could be deceiving, without looking at the full picture:
JS has played no D4 schools in pre-season or league, playing them, in league or pre-season, would lower that rating. In comparison, SPSV played 2 in pre-season, and 2 league.
Additionally, St. Mary's has a strength of schedule rating of 6, when they played almost the identical schedule as SPSV. What was the difference - 1 game. They played a D1 school in pre-season. and that one game apparently 2.5 points to them.
I AM NOT UNDERMINING OR SAYING THAT JS DID NOT PLAY A HARD SCHEDULE.
I am simply trying to provide my view when considering strength of schedule. However, if these two teams were to play on the field, I believe it would be one heck of a game.
Now when it come to our brothers in the North, yes there is a huge difference between a 9-1 team, and a 5-5 team from the south, playing in a D3 league. I agree with that whole heartedly.
One final note. If you put SPSV or St. Mary's in the MAL, I think they come out with the same league record as JS 5-2, make the adjustment for preseason - SPSV would be 7-3, SM 7-3 going into the playoffs.
I think what makes the difference this year for JS was their ALL of their pre-season games. (btw SM played and beat Acalanes)
Coach from Joe,
I have no problems with your analysis. I just want a non Div IV committee to look at the W-L records AND the strength of schedule and make a common sense football decision.
My opinion is that the current committee has a hard time POLITICALLY seeding a team with a worst record higher than a school with a better W-L record.
Do you agree that JS, SPSV, Salesian, St. Mary's and maybe others would be 10-0 if they played Ferndale's schedule?
These are the type of questions the committee should ask
themselves.
I have seen all of these teams - including yours - play the past 3 years. You might disagree, but based on my experience, I think MC and Novado would have EASILY defeated any Div IV team this year.
Joe, agreed. Anyone of the teams mentioned would have the same If not a similar record.
Now with that said, let me state that Ferndale is a D5 team. They petition up to play in D4. Not only do they play D4 teams, but they also play D3 team(s) - Fortuna and win. Fortuna was a D3 playoff team.
As for an independent committee, I'm not to sure how much more independent they could get, from what was done this year. I thought this year was completely fair. The only thing I didn't like was having so many teams in the playoffs. But it does appear to be producing some good games.
One final comment, if you are indicating that JS got a bad seed, maybe so, but let me simply state: They are still playing. I'd rather have been the 9th seed and still playing, than the 1st and at home.
I saw the St Mary's and JS game last Saturday. What impressed me the most about JS was their poise. Even though they were behind, they maintained their poise through out the game and continued to do their best and ended up winning the game. Very impressive.
It is something that unfortunately I have not seen yet at VC. Repeatedly this year, once they have fallen behind it's like the air has been taken out of their tires and they go flat.
So if JS gets ahead of VC I think that they will build on their lead and win the game. VC has yet to come back from more than a 1 touch down deficit.
OK, nobody else seems to want to key in on the real issue, so I will. It's not North vs. South, or anyything based upon geographics. It comes down to public vs. private schools. Valley Christian is three years old and beat a team/coach that has been around for 20+ years. Their the best team money can buy at the moment. Public schools have no chance in competing with the Salesians and St. Mary's in this league. You want to see how a public school will be next year? Look at their JV teams. The private schools teams change so much, depending on who they can rob from other schools in the area, you never know what you'll see. Look at the brackets Coach already came up with, they were pretty much public vs. private as it was.
>> Valley Christian is three years old and beat a team/coach that has been around for 20+ years. Their the best team money can buy at the moment.>>
Totally Wrong! Valley Christian did NOT buy their team. They are a modest private school that does not have the funds to pay for a football team.
Because they are a low budget program, almost all of their equipment was donated and almost all of their coaches are volunteers. They do not have a football field and they do not even have a football weight room. Parella and Woodson are coaches because their kids were going to Valley Christian BEFORE they had a football program.
Valley Christian is a good example of how a school can get a football program going on a shoe string budget. No one is preventing public schools from recruiting volunteer coaches or soliciting for donations and equipment.
Public schools have the big advantage of being able to get funds from the government or getting local residents to pass propositions that raise money for their schools. Private schools have no such benefits. May be that is why the private schools have an advantage because they can only rely on themselves to raise funds, get donations and volunteers. Public school supporters need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and get busy raising their own funds and volunteers if that is why they believe they are at a disadvantage.
As far as recruiting goes, what aspiring football player wants to join a small unproven no-name team that does not have any football facilities and is playing their very first year of varsity football? The Valley Christian team is just a bunch of scrappy teens playing football who have a great fighting spirit that is not letting other teams with great track records intimidate them.
"As far as recruiting goes, what aspiring football player wants to join a small unproven no-name team that does not have any football facilities and is playing their very first year of varsity football? The Valley Christian team is just a bunch of scrappy teens playing football who have a great fighting spirit that is not letting other teams with great track records intimidate them."
How many car washes did VC do this year? How many athletes actually live anywhere close to that campus? Don't pull your excuses out. Don't pretend like it's just a fluke all these athletes showed up at VC, or Salesian, or any of the other private schools in this division. You guys pull the best athletes from the public schools in your area, and you know it.
I understand the concern about Private Schools. I am a father of a JS football player. Last year my son went to a public school so I have seen this from both sides. I can assure you that at JS I am constantly paying for MANY things that are provided free at a public school. The main difference that I see is that - in general - many exceptions I am sure - the average parent in a Private school is much more involved and participates much more personally and financially in their school activities - including football.
I have nothing against VC - I am sure these are fine young men who are working hard but I think the same thing can be said about the JS players or players from other schools.
One additional note - I am very close to the JS program and I can tell you that I know of no case where we have recruited any player from any schoolin any way.
Rosters
Salesian - 40
JS - 30
VC - 31
Berean - 33
St. Pats - 34
Ferndale - 21
Fort Bragg - 24
Middletown - 27
Cloverdale - 30
How many of the private schools have to raise money to pay for the busses to get them to their away games? How many of those rosters include kids that live within other public school's districts, who's football team is average?
You may or may not actively go out and recruit, but don't say that the best athletes from public schools don't migrate to the private schools for sports. How that low of population of schools can have such high number of athletes is pretty amazing wouldn't you say?
$10,970 Tuition
$785 Registration, Capital Improvement and Yearbook Fees
Current Students: Parent Involvement Requirement - 20 Service and 15 Participation Hours by April 30, 2010 or $1,000, due May 15, 2010
$100 Required Yearly Raffles ($50 each Fall and Spring)
$500 Textbooks (approximate estimate) * All fees are subject to change for 2010-2011
How many of the 46, not 40, players on the football team pay these full fees at Salesian, and how many are on some type of scholarship or assistance program?
Was there a single public school in the finals of D-IV in the north coast section in ANY team sport during the 2008/09 school year? I don't think there was. It's time for California to impose an enrollment multiplier, just like many other states have done. Then it won't matter where kids decide to play.
Anon wrote: Don't pull your excuses out. Don't pretend like it's just a fluke all these athletes showed up at VC, or Salesian, or any of the other private schools in this division. You guys pull the best athletes from the public schools in your area, and you know it.
EXCUSES??? You’re the one making all the excuses for public schools. You sure love to insult public schools with your put downs of their athletes by saying that we have the best athletes from the public schools in our area. What about all the Monte Vista (public high school in Danville) athletes who are playing in Div I schools like USC, Stanford etc??? That is just one of the top public schools in our area that have exceptional athletes. Open your eyes and you will see how numerous top (and may I add world class) athletes who go to public schools.
Let me also enlighten you further: one of the main reasons (#1 for many parents) that people send their kids to private schools is so that their kids can be taught religious values that public schools are PROHIBITED from teaching. If it was not for that, many parents would rather save their money and send their kids to public schools. If their kid wants to play football it is a lot cheaper to send them to a public school than to a private school. Private school parents are not all idiots who just want to throw their money away when there is an option to get something for free.
Anon (December 3, 2009 1:08 PM) wrote :
>>It's time for California to impose an enrollment multiplier.
This is so that the losers can now become winners right?
What kind of American are you? My son is not a 4.0 student - is that fair? Based on your logic, the students in his class that get straight A’s should have their grades discounted or my son should get a grade multiplier so that he too can become a 4.0 student. Is that the right thing to do? Is winning a football game something that each school is entitled to get???
Why isn’t anyone talking about how Middletown annihilated Harker (a VERY rich private school) in the first round of playoffs by the score of 62-0???? Its OK for Middletown to gleefully destroy a private school but not OK for a private school to score a 1 point upset victory over Middletown? What kind of double standard is this???
Anon (December 3, 2009 1:08 PM) wrote :
>>It's time for California to impose an enrollment multiplier.
Since you are so desperate for your public school to win and never get beaten by a private school, why don’t you propose that we eliminate scoring all together so that everyone can be a winner and all football players can go home with a trophy. This way you won’t have to worry about which athletes go to private schools.
When our brave fore fathers fought the war of independence, you never heard them complaining about how unfair it was for the British to have superior weapons, superior training, superior funding, and a much larger army and navy. They just went to battle determined to defeat the superior British army and the rest is history. If a public school feels that a private school has certain advantages over them they may want to emulate what our fore fathers did to the British army and outfight them on the playing field.
I can tell you with 100% confidence that the overwhelming reason people send their kkids to private schools is for a better education - football has nothing to do with the decision.
Let me get this straight - you can not beat the private schools so we should change the rules so you can win.
Incidently, JS does play EVERY game agaist much larger schools. Check the student population of the schools in the Marin County league.
Wuaaaaah… Mommy…Daddy… the private schools beat us in football!!! Please tell the government to change the rules so that we can win every game against the private schools. Its not fair for them to win, it is only fair if a public school wins.
Mommy…please have the cops handcuff their receivers so that they can’t catch a ball, this way for sure we can beat them. Daddy…we have no confidence in our own abilities and need you to make the government force private schools to only have 4 players at a time on the playing field so that we can win every game. Wuaaahh… do it now Daddy! What are you waiting for???
Waaa, my son wants a championship, so we're going to enroll him in a school that will pay for his education and get him a sports championship as well. If you private school people are so high and mighty, why are you so opposed to a private/public school playoff system. Too scared to face off against schools that recruit top athletes as well? I know you guys are use to facing off against the lower competition, but give it a try, you might like it. Take St. Vincent out of Petaluma, they go up and play with the big boys and get spanked, so they keep that enrollment right at 399 so they can play in the DV bracket. Sounds and looks way too familar to what the DIV private schools are doing.
I do not know what to make of this private school/public school discussion. There are very good teams from both groups. I think the good teams come from schools who have a tradition of winning, good coaches, supportive parents and determined kids who work hard in the off-season. Some of the successful teams are Private and some are public.
Anon wrote:
>>Waaa, my son wants a championship, so we're going to enroll him in a school that will pay for his education and get him a sports championship as well.>>
Wow, you are assuming all the good players in private schools are poor kids who are going there for free? What a bigot. In public schools they ALL are getting their education for free.
Anon wrote:
>>Too scared to face off against schools that recruit top athletes as well? I know you guys are use to facing off against the lower competition, but give it a try, you might like it.>>
#1 Sacred??? LOL… you’re the one who wants to change the rules because you are afraid to lose against a private school. Fact: JS, VC, etc play against strong powerhouse teams that beat them - just look at their schedule - why do you think the regular season record of VC and JS are both 5-5?. But unlike you they are not whining about it.
#2 So you are saying that the top public schools (Middeltown, Cloverdale etc) are lower competition? What about Middletown crushing Harker 62-0????? Why don’t you give the public schools the credit they deserve? Why do you always have to put them down as inferior schools. Please, the public school kids deserve credit for their wins. Middletown lost only because VC got lucky. One more time: Stop putting down public schools by saying they are inferior - they are not!
I bet you anything, if Middletown were given a chance to play VC again today they would jump on it and would never in a million years cower in fear against a private school. Have some pride man.
Anon wrote:
>> they keep that enrollment right at 399 so they can play in the DV bracket. Sounds and looks way too familar to what the DIV private schools are doing.>>
Wow, so your team loses a football game and you concoct all these conspiracy theories about private schools… you are truly pathetic. I am sorry that you have such an inferiority complex.
Being a public school coach, I can see both sides. Yes, all in all, we need to prepare to play the game, no matter who we are facing. Public or private, we need to play. Private schools have a definite advantage. They may have the same enrollment, but the quality of the families, the quality of the athletes, and the pure number of the ahtletes is no where close to what is represented in the public school programs. Look at this weekends only surviving public school in DIV, Fort Bragg. They have 24 players who are on their 13th week of the season. I would venture to say that the starting football players in Fort Bragg have had to endure one hell of a lot more football this season, then the starting players at Salesian. Fort Bragg doesn't have the luxury of having a roster of 46, with back ups at every position. Ferndale does it with 21. I'd like to see these private schools make it through a year with 5-6 quality athletes and a supporting class of average athletes like these public schools do.
Anon Dec 3 10:15PM wrote:
>>Too scared to face off against schools that recruit top athletes as well? I know you guys are use
>>to facing off against the lower competition, but give it a try, you might like it.
Anon, clearly you do not know the facts of this season and are an ignorant person.
You can keep yourself from sounding like you are uneducated if you will just do a simple search of the facts first before making your accusations.
This season Justin-Sienna:
Lost 41-0 against Marin Catholic
Lost 42-0 against Novato
Lost 48-39 against Menlo
This season Valley Christian:
Lost 42-13 against Berean
Lost 42-23 against Sacred Heart
Lost 40-7 against Salesian
This season Harker:
Lost 62- against Middletown
Lost 37-7 against Salesian
Lost 48-13 against Valley Christian
Middletown only lost 2 games: 1 by 8 points and the other by 1 point.
Cloverdale only lost 2 games: Both by only 10 points.
Fort Bragg lost only 2 games: 1 by 8 points and the other by 17 points.
So who exactly is afraid to face off against schools with top athletes? It’s definitely not the private schools!
There are some very important things not beng considered in this arguement. First off not all private schools have top level athletes. Any one familiar with Napa knows that traditionally the best football players in the town go to Napa high not Justin. Justin has never beat anyone by out athleting them, this was clearly evident against St Mary's last weekend and Salesian in last years finals.
I can't speak for any of the other private schools in the division but Justin has one player that runs in 4.6's and this is one of the faster teams they have had.
What seperates the two most succesfull schools in d IV from the rest of the pack? Both Ferndale and Justin have always played stellar championship level defense, PERIOD. This allows both of these schools to beat teams that they cant touch athletically. I you have anything to complain about talk to your own coaches about how much time they spend on their offenses compared to defenses.
One more point, why do parents in Richmond and Vallejo choose to send their kids to Salesian and St Pats...because the public schools in those areas are a joke. So lets blame parents for trying to give their kids a chance to be succesful in life...somethings are a lot bigger than football programs.
Let me review - Justin Siena is having an off-year: JS has a bad regular season record: Justin Siena is seeded the 9th best team in DIV IV.
Tonight they beat VC 48-23 to go to the DIV IV finals.. VC scored with one second left against the second team to make it seem closer that it was.
Congratulation to these young men who overcame all of the obstacles and doubts.
I know the public school- private school debate will always rage on, but you have to keep perspective. Do you really want an NCL North/South and HDNL Little Five playoff each year? That would get boring fast. How about an all Bay Area "Private" section? Not much better there. What makes this Division exciting is the diversity of teams spread out from the north to the Bay Area. Seeding will always be an issue, but as long as the NCS keeps the current playoff format, all the deserving teams will get in.
Second, the past 12 years, private schools have won 6 titles and public schools 6. The private schools have done better the past six years, but the public schools did equally well the six years prior. It's all cyclical.
Note to Public schools whose seasons have ended - instead of trying to get the rules changed against private schools- WORK HARDER
From a JS parent:
I think Salesian will easily beat Ft. Bragg today. Ft. Bragg has not really beaten any quality team in the regular season. They lost to both Cloverdale and Middletown (both lost to VC in play-offs).Ft. Bragg is a good example of a team that plays a very easy schedule and gets an impressive but misleading W-L record.
They beat a very over-rated Ferndale in the play-offs but will not be able to handle the size and speed of Salesian.
Prediction: Salesian 44-21
However, I hope Ft. Bragg wins
From BigMike,
More fuel to the strength of schedule fire. I agree that several Div IV teams play weak schedules - get impressive but misleading W-L records, get high seeds, and then get defeated in the playoffs by lower seeded teams who were better all along but played harder schedules and hence had worst W-L records.
A few examples:
Middleton 9-1 strength of schedule minus 8.0 seeded 4th
Cloverdale 9-1 Strength of schedule minus 8.4 seeded 5th
Ferndale 10-0 Strength of schedule minus 8.2 seeded 2nd
What do these high seeds have in common?
They all lost to lower seeds in the first or second round of the playoff. No one who knows football should be surprised.
BigMike from Joe,
To add to your point
Justin Siena 5-5 regular season Strength of schedule not a minus but a PLUS 9.8 seeded 9th
JS in the finals and has defeated three other playoff teams including the #1 seed St. Mary.
Meanwhile all of these high seeds (except Salesian) have ended their season.
I am sure the seeding committe next year will again seed these schools with weak schedules very high. This committe works very hard to make sure they do not learn form experience
Strength of schedule is important, but it shouldn't be the only factor. How soon we forget Justin Siena getting the number one seed twice and getting bumped before the finals (once they were routed by the 8 seed in the first round). The street goes both ways. You complain now, and the seeding committee will lower the seeds of the public school teams, and raise those who play Div. II and III schools. After a couple of seasons, they get bumped in the first or second round and then we come back to where we are now.
One thing you are forgetting. The team that is a league champion hosts the games.
I have just observed the last two seasons so I have no knowledge of past years. I do know what has happened the past two years and Joe and anonymous have made good points. I do not think that anyone says consider only strength of schedule. Step 1 Consider the W-L record
Step 2 Consider the strength of schedule
Step 3 Use common sense football knowledge to put step one and step 2 together.
I know that teams that have easy schedules and good W-L records do not want this kind of football analysis.
If we seed based on W-L records a computer or trained monkey can do the seedings. Wait - Maybe I have descovered the real process.
What a wonderful game - HS football!!! I have the greatest respect for all of these players. Football requires a great deal of dedication and sacrafice and these young men could hae choosen an easier path - but they didn't.
I am reminded of a quote from General Douglas MacArthur during WW2:
"Upon the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other fields on other days will bear the fruit of victory"
Nick
The analysis you’re referring to is much more accurate when Div. IV teams play other Div. IV teams in non-league games. How many Div. IV teams did JS play this year outside of the playoffs? NONE. So the only thing the seeding committee had to go on was Justin Siena losing to Acalanes by 2 touchdowns and St. Mary’s beating Acalanes by two touchdowns. St. Mary’s v. Salesian was a competitive game (1 TD difference) and Salesian v. Middletown was a competitive game (1 TD difference). How can you say with complete certainty that if Fort Bragg or Ferndale played the same schedule Justin Siena did that their records wouldn’t be the same or better than that of JS?
By the way, over all, Ferndale and Justin Siena are 2-2 against each other.
Correction on the last comment. Justin did play Division IV team, but they are in the CCS, Menlo. They beat Justin in a shoot out and made it to the finals of the CCS Division IV playoffs. Also Ferndale and Justin may be 2-2 but every single one of those games was played up north.
As a Justin Siena fan I should be happy that we are in the finals and forget about the seeding committee. However, one last comment. The great minds on the seeding committe should think about this fact - their #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6 and #8 of 14 seeds are eliminated leaving the 7th and 9th seeds in the finals. Can ANYONE SAY THEY DID A DECENT JOB?
correction, Justin has played Ferndale 5 times all up north. 2000 finals; 2002 final 2003 finals; 2005 semi-finals
2008 semi-finals and Justin has won 3 of the 5
I see that Ferndale fans are very emotional and sensitive plus are not that interested in facts.
To the JS parent...Looks like you got your score backwards. Fort Bragg not only won the game, but played toe to toe with Salesian. We may not have the numbers or the money that you private schools have, but we have a heart of gold. You people down in the cities have no clue how small town football works. How can Ferndale be overated?? They play anybody and everybody they can in their area, and they have won 60 out of their last 67 games. Fort Bragg travels at the bare minimum one hour to play the closest team (Willits). They are a PUBLIC school, they don't have rich mommies and daddies to pay for them to travel everywhere. They had to raise their own money just to pay for the busses to take them to their games this year, their school district paid for NOTHING. They lost two games to two team in the playoffs. They beat the teams they should have beat, and they did that well.
Ferndale, Middletown, Fort Bragg, you can say what you want about strength of schedule. These teams don't have the luxury of having an abundance of schools within a couple hours drive of them. They don't have the ablility to draw in athletes from other schools in their area. They play the hand they've been dealt, and they do it pretty damn well.
I was very dissappointed in some of the players/coaches/fans while sitting and watching the game in Salesian.
#1- When Salesian's player was hurt, our players were on a knee and very repsectful to the fact that they had a player down. When our player was down, the Salesian players were milling around and yelling across the field to our players.
#2- I'm watching the players/coaches shaking hands after the game, #78 and a few other Salesian players didn't even walk through the line, and even worse, their head coach backed away and refused to shake our head coaches hand after the game.
#3- Throughout the game Salesian fans (a few of them) were very rude and disrespectful to those of us who made the trek down to watch our sons play a game.
I thought the whole point of a private catholic school like this is to get away from these actions, not encourage them.
I am very disappointed to hear about the low class behavior by the Salesian head coach and many others on their side. Hey... you guys are giving Catholic schools a bad name with such behavior and are reinforcing the negative image your school has for being a dirty team. But then again maybe you guys don't care about Catholic teachings about kindness to others and are only there to win football games and nothing else.
I want to congratulate the JS football team and coaches for their exceptional performance in defeating VC. The were clearly a much better team in every aspect and basically totally dominated the game and scored at will. VC had never faced a team that had mastered the Veer offense like JS. Both the VC rookie coaching staff and players did not know how to deal with it and were consequently thrashed by JS. In a few years, the coaching staff and players hopefully will find a way to deal with this style of offense.
While the JS players and coaches were a class act, I was disappointed to see that their student body was not.
As VC struggled feebly to fight back I was surprised at the derogatory group taunts from the student section.
When VC scored their second touch down I was surprised to hear their loud chants of “look at the score board” over and over - rubbing it in that they were stomping VC. And later on they kept gleefully chanting “one more score”. It would be one thing to do this if they were playing a tough arch rival like Marin Catholic who crushed JS 41-0 or Novato who blew away JS 42-0, but they were playing a much weaker first year team. I have never seen such coordinated low class behavior from a student body fan section.
VC was also thrashed 42-23 by Sacred Heart, 40-7 by Salesian, and 42-13 by Berean, and no one at those schools taunted or belittled VC. They were all magnanimous in victory and very respectful. Sacred Heart (to my surprise) even had a large banner that said “Welcome Valley Christian” - which is something I don’t expect any school to do but it showed a lot of class on their part.
Now I can see why so many other schools and parents hate JS and are trying to get them out of Div IV and into a tougher division so that they don’t have to deal with them anymore. I used to think it was just jealousy - now I know better. Its too bad because I think they have a very good football team. I’m surprised that since they are a Catholic school that the students are not taught to be Magnanimous in Victory and Gracious in Defeat.
I have to agree as a Justin supporter that the behavior of the student body, in terms of the taunting, was not what you would call a class act.
That being said, it is hardly a reason to "hate" one of the classiest programs in Northern California. "Derogatory" is a pretty strong word choice. I highly doubt that anyone from VC could claim that some was rude or derogatory to them personally.
I have been around high school football for a while and can say that I have heard a lot worse at more than one game. Whether it was a rivay game or not, it was the semi-finals of the Championship tournment and the students where a little over excited. The student body of Justin Siena is widely know to be made up of a lot of quality young men and women. I can understand someone being upset at the mild taunting but that was all it was at best. No need to build anamosty between schools.
VC has an excellent young program. The program seems to have a high level of support within its community, good coaches, and talented players.
PS This constant argument about Justin being moved up a division is really getting old. The enrollment this year is under 600 students and well under the division limits. Justin football is good simply because of the high level of coaching and deidcation of the players. They are not loaded with college talent and rarely send anyone division 1. Plenty of other schools in D IV have better athletes, not too many teams are as well coached on both sides of the ball. I can only think of one, our rivals from the north.
fort braggs coach?
"fort braggs coach?"
Are you asking who the Fort Bragg coach is or something else?
the comment before said no team coachs like js other than one. I think he was asking is fort bragg is the other.
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